Have you read this?

[fighterxaos]

Back in the day--and he's older than I am--martial arts were heavily advertised as letting a child, woman, or 98 lb. weakling defend themselves against a 250 lb. biker. Technique would let you use his strength against him--his weight was virtually a disadvantage to him! So, I get why he's putting this in as a myth with the others--indeed, myths like one punch, one kill have long since been debunked, but he's showing his age with his selection of topics.

I realize that training doesn't mean you're a shoo-in to beat anybody out on the street. My dad and uncle were from the times when schools would have advertisements like that. Didn't mean it to sound that way. Also, that is a good point about the selection of topics. Those were already debunked I was hoping it would be about stuff that wasn't already done to death.

 

[Drasken]

I agree with many of these points. I also disagree with a fair bit of it.
I think lately we have 2 problems with martial arts myths. On the one hand people have made claims and myths that really are out there. But on the other hand, there are people claiming there is no basis in reality to many of these myths. Or they claim them to be false completely, while trying to explain why the myths exist.

The truth is, that martial arts are not like what most people think. But I hate it when people go overboard in discrediting martial arts either. And the same can be said about saying women are unable to effectively defend themselves. Now in GENERAL, a woman is at more of a disadvantage. But I have seen a woman dish out one heck of a butt kicking to a guy that was easily twice her size.

In general, I think the people "Dispelling the myths" can do just as much damage as the ones creating or spreading myths.

 

[chinto]

there are documented accounts of people kicking people in the femoral artery on the inside of the thigh. the one kicked died 2 or 3 days latter, as he threw an embolism to the heart, brain or lungs that killed him.. blood clots can KILL. so yes there is some basis in historical fact. brake a rib or two and create a tension hemo\nemo thorax and in hours or less the victim will die with out definitive care. Can martial artists kill with hand and feel and knees and elbows and chokes and strangles? YES. is every strike a killing one? no.

 

[lklawson]

there are documented accounts of people kicking people in the femoral artery on the inside of the thigh. the one kicked died 2 or 3 days latter, as he threw an embolism to the heart, brain or lungs that killed him.. blood clots can KILL. so yes there is some basis in historical fact. brake a rib or two and create a tension hemo\nemo thorax and in hours or less the victim will die with out definitive care. Can martial artists kill with hand and feel and knees and elbows and chokes and strangles? YES. is every strike a killing one? no.

There are lots of things that can cause a delayed death, from embolism to atrial fib. The problem is reliable repeatability. It's one thing to punch a guy in the chest and just the right time in-between beats, in the right microsecond, to set up an escalating/spiraling atrial fibrillation. It's an entirely different thing to be able to do it on command with a high percentage of success, over and over.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Touch Of Death]

I say Dim Mak is real, but you can't exactly tie people to post and practice anymore; so, the art is long dead.

 

[clfsean]

Dim Mak is a skill set, like many things & is used in conjunction with, martial techniques to be applied.

It's not dead yet, but is on the way. It's just not viable in today's world & the available, reliable knowledge of it is far less than in previous times.

 

[punisher73]

There are lots of things that can cause a delayed death, from embolism to atrial fib. The problem is reliable repeatability. It's one thing to punch a guy in the chest and just the right time in-between beats, in the right microsecond, to set up an escalating/spiraling atrial fibrillation. It's an entirely different thing to be able to do it on command with a high percentage of success, over and over.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I agree. If you look at the Bubishi and the "vital points" that it shows. Many of them are not mysterious acupuncture points (a la Dillman) they are anatomically weak points of the human body that would have a medical explanation outside of "chi".

There are SEVERAL of the points (targets) that if you hit them and caused internal trauma you will die in a few days or later on of something "mysterious" to them back then.

1) Punch hard enough to the abdominal cavity and you can rupture the spleen, which will cause a slow death without medical intervention. Even in the same area if you break off the small bone in the solar plexus area you can cause internal bleeding which could lead to death.

2) Head-if a hard enough blow is struck, or the person is thrown onto their head a concussion may result or skull fracture. If it is severe enough and they go to sleep, they may not wake up again. Again, medical technology would save someone.

Those are just a couple of the spots that immediately come to mind, but as we can see. If you wanted to be left alone and punched a guy hard enough to rupture the spleen, creating a story of having a mystical delayed death touch is the way to go. Not to mention that there is the belief that many of these stories were actually poisonings with something small and hand held.

As to the women at a disadvantage. Huh? Too broad a statement to be useful or correct. What if you have a larger female that does heavy labor all day and a male that is small boned and sits at a desk? Which one is at the disadvantage? I'm sure we could do all sorts of "what ifs" on this one. Might as well make it overly general and say that in two untrained individuals size and strength can be a factor.

 

[chinto]

the best translation I ever saw for " Dim Mak " is " Vital Points" so strike a throat over the cycloid cartilage and you Will KILL! put a floating rib in the Spleen or Liver and you will kill...break the C2 or C3 in the neck or C1 of course.. you Will KILL! so in that respect yes it exists...

 

[Zero]

the best translation I ever saw for " Dim Mak " is " Vital Points" so strike a throat over the cycloid cartilage and you Will KILL! put a floating rib in the Spleen or Liver and you will kill...break the C2 or C3 in the neck or C1 of course.. you Will KILL! so in that respect yes it exists...

Hmmm, are we really talking about what is supposed to be Dim Mak here? Some of the above, such as Punisher's examples and Chinto's seem more like standard strikes applied with full power to weaker body parts. No one is going to argue that just one powerful knife hand to the windpipe may well kill someone or that if you split the liver or break ribs and leave without medical intervention, that person may well die. Same with a full power blow to the head, death may result.

My ((very!) limited) understanding of Dim Mak was that you did not need to use full body force/torque to deliver such a blow and that by administering a much less obvious but more focused blow/impact/pressure to a vital point (or several points), the result would be unconsciousness or a delayed death. IS this not a different kettle of fish altogether?

I only once, long time ago, saw a demonstration of pressure point strikes, a Chinese lady (a friend of a jujitsu practitioner who trained with us) came to our dojo and displayed this on our sensei, who volunteered. She hit three points in quick succession and his legs buckled/he blacked out for split second. He had to willingly stand there and in good spirits and let her do so. She hit two areas in his torso/abdomin and one on his side of neck, in hitting the three spots it was something to do with disturbing the energy/chi. I think it must have been blocking blood flow through the carotid artery or maybe disruption of electrical impulses. Sorry, I don't have a firm grip on this area at all. Also, she did not seem to be able to do this with just hitting one spot.

This did not "strike" me (sorry for the pun) as something you could use against a knowing, moving opponent with effect and I do not think could be used to result in death (although if brief unconsciousness can be produced, maybe a skilled enough master could somehow bring about a coma you don't come out of if untreated back in the day...) - but again I don't see this as a technique that at any time in history could be used in a fight against an engaged opponent but maybe against an unknowing target...I am trying to be open minded but my BS radar is going well into the red here...

 

[Cyriacus]

Hmmm, are we really talking about what is supposed to be Dim Mak here? Some of the above, such as Punisher's examples and Chinto's seem more like standard strikes applied with full power to weaker body parts. No one is going to argue that just one powerful knife hand to the windpipe may well kill someone or that if you split the liver or break ribs and leave without medical intervention, that person may well die. Same with a full power blow to the head, death may result.

My ((very!) limited) understanding of Dim Mak was that you did not need to use full body force/torque to deliver such a blow and that by administering a much less obvious but more focused blow/impact/pressure to a vital point (or several points), the result would be unconsciousness or a delayed death. IS this not a different kettle of fish altogether?

I only once, long time ago, saw a demonstration of pressure point strikes, a Chinese lady (a friend of a jujitsu practitioner who trained with us) came to our dojo and displayed this on our sensei, who volunteered. She hit three points in quick succession and his legs buckled/he blacked out for split second. He had to willingly stand there and in good spirits and let her do so. She hit two areas in his torso/abdomin and one on his side of neck, in hitting the three spots it was something to do with disturbing the energy/chi. I think it must have been blocking blood flow through the carotid artery or maybe disruption of electrical impulses. Sorry, I don't have a firm grip on this area at all. Also, she did not seem to be able to do this with just hitting one spot.

This did not "strike" me (sorry for the pun) as something you could use against a knowing, moving opponent with effect and I do not think could be used to result in death (although if brief unconsciousness can be produced, maybe a skilled enough master could somehow bring about a coma you don't come out of if untreated back in the day...) - but again I don't see this as a technique that at any time in history could be used in a fight against an engaged opponent but maybe against an unknowing target...I am trying to be open minded but my BS radar is going well into the red here...

This is gonna be a bit mean...
She went to all that trouble just to get what she could have gotten out of one forearm strike to the neck, only without the control and potential to repeat the same strike again if it doesnt work the first time? And she spent a long time learning how to do it her way, as opposed to doing something you can pretty much learn by seeing it once?

If your BS radar is going into the red, would you mind if i kick it a few times to get it a little deeper?

 

[Zero]

This is gonna be a bit mean...
She went to all that trouble just to get what she could have gotten out of one forearm strike to the neck, only without the control and potential to repeat the same strike again if it doesnt work the first time? And she spent a long time learning how to do it her way, as opposed to doing something you can pretty much learn by seeing it once?

If your BS radar is going into the red, would you mind if i kick it a few times to get it a little deeper?

I agree with all you are saying. I will say in her defense that whatever she did, did seem to have a result, of a limited degree and in a highly controlled environment with a totally pliable uke (sensei did admit later to having buckled/blanked out momentarily, and he is a big guy with legs like oaks). But I think what she achieved is as good as it gets in this field and unless practitioners are doing so with their eyes open/purely for the fun, I would think it a shame if there were MA's solely devoting their time to pressure point work thinking this was a viable defense or combat system in itself. However, to be able to achieve anything remotely like this woman I think this would take up most of your time, and there are much more effective techniques to be working on...like your good old forearm strike...although, as a "pressure point" strike I prefer Bud Spencer's good old hammer fist to the top of the head!! kapow!! : )

 

[MJS]

Interesting article on Black Belt Mag.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/m...the-death-touch-and-other-martial-arts-myths/

I bet there is more than we know.

I'll answer in order that it appears on the link:

1) The reverse punch: I have never really been a huge fan of the 1 shot/1 kill mentality. Even after 2 yrs of training in Kyokushin, which I still train in, while I understand the idea and value of hitting hard, if you're not hitting the right spot, well, that 1 shot, 1 kill isn't going to happen.

2) The Karate chop: Like #1, all strikes can be effective, and no, IMO, nothing is magical. There is no magic pill in the arts.

3) The death touch: LOL! I'm not a believer in this stuff.

4) Trained vs. untrained: The size vs strength debate has and will rage on forever, even though that myth has been proven to not be all its cracked up to be. We've all seen smaller people defeat larger opponents. I'm not saying it doesn't play a part, but not as big as some want to think. Furthermore, I've seen some pretty tough females, so IMO, I don't feel the element of surprise is as important as the article leads.

5) A champ can KO anyone: Anyone with a solid fighting background, someone who's used to contact is most likely going to have an edge, but just because we have training, doesn't mean that its going to make us Superman.

 

[Zero]

I'll answer in order that it appears on the link:

1) The reverse punch: I have never really been a huge fan of the 1 shot/1 kill mentality. Even after 2 yrs of training in Kyokushin, which I still train in, while I understand the idea and value of hitting hard, if you're not hitting the right spot, well, that 1 shot, 1 kill isn't going to happen.

2) The Karate chop: Like #1, all strikes can be effective, and no, IMO, nothing is magical. There is no magic pill in the arts.

3) The death touch: LOL! I'm not a believer in this stuff.

4) Trained vs. untrained: The size vs strength debate has and will rage on forever, even though that myth has been proven to not be all its cracked up to be. We've all seen smaller people defeat larger opponents. I'm not saying it doesn't play a part, but not as big as some want to think. Furthermore, I've seen some pretty tough females, so IMO, I don't feel the element of surprise is as important as the article leads.

5) A champ can KO anyone: Anyone with a solid fighting background, someone who's used to contact is most likely going to have an edge, but just because we have training, doesn't mean that its going to make us Superman.

Hard to be sure what Bill Wallace meant re the female comments. How many females in his time/peak did he come into contact with? But surely in the later years he has trained and witnessed some decent femal practitioners?!!

Maybe he is just acknowledging the truth that in general women do not have the same muscular density and strength as men, even a large woman will not generaly have the same muscular density or strength as a smaller male and even woman weight lifters have to train very hard to have the same one-off/one rep max strength as your average sized Joe off the street that does not weight/strength train at all. Just as, like it or not, the top female tennis players cannot generate the same speed/power with the ball as the top mens players.

In a full-on concerted fight, I am not sure who I would put my money on between a trained MA female and an average Joe without particular MA training. But from a pure SD perspective (ie strike/throw, get out and run) I would have to disagree with Bill, if what he is saying is a female would still not cut the mustard. I have seen a teenage female judoka throw a grown male (well, mid 20s) who was being a d!ck at a party. If it is a question of executing a move and getting the hell out of there while the male is shocked/surprised/momentarily incapacitated, of course a trained female could/can do this.

It's a different story when talking about being against a male who is also skilled. Any female MA, or male MA that is, who finds themselves up against a larger but also well trained or fight experienced opponent is gonna find it hard going.

 

[MJS]

Hard to be sure what Bill Wallace meant re the female comments. How many females in his time/peak did he come into contact with? But surely in the later years he has trained and witnessed some decent femal practitioners?!!

True.

Maybe he is just acknowledging the truth that in general women do not have the same muscular density and strength as men, even a large woman will not generaly have the same muscular density or strength as a smaller male and even woman weight lifters have to train very hard to have the same one-off/one rep max strength as your average sized Joe off the street that does not weight/strength train at all. Just as, like it or not, the top female tennis players cannot generate the same speed/power with the ball as the top mens players.

True.

In a full-on concerted fight, I am not sure who I would put my money on between a trained MA female and an average Joe without particular MA training. But from a pure SD perspective (ie strike/throw, get out and run) I would have to disagree with Bill, if what he is saying is a female would still not cut the mustard. I have seen a teenage female judoka throw a grown male (well, mid 20s) who was being a d!ck at a party. If it is a question of executing a move and getting the hell out of there while the male is shocked/surprised/momentarily incapacitated, of course a trained female could/can do this.

Agreed. And yes, as you pointed out, there is a difference between the fight and SD.

It's a different story when talking about being against a male who is also skilled. Any female MA, or male MA that is, who finds themselves up against a larger but also well trained or fight experienced opponent is gonna find it hard going.

True, and I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like size/strength don't matter at all, I'm simply saying that if we look at the UFC, prior to the current ruleset that we see today, ie: weight classes, etc, we often saw smaller fighters win against larger ones.

I suppose at the end of the day, it'll all come down to who's the better person at that moment. We could probably match up the same people a few different times, and it'd be possible to get varying results.

 

[Cyriacus]

I suppose at the end of the day, it'll all come down to who's the better person at that moment. We could probably match up the same people a few different times, and it'd be possible to get varying results.

And what happens in that moment. Surprise (real surprise, not the 'that ***** is fighting back, oh deary me a woman defending herself' surprise) tends to stack the deck in a hurry, irrespective of size, strength, weight, and pretty much everything else. Gender may vary based on the womans ability to actually go for it and not hold herself back (i dont know many girls who grew up roughhousing).

 

[Zero]

And what happens in that moment. Surprise (real surprise, not the 'that ***** is fighting back, oh deary me a woman defending herself' surprise) tends to stack the deck in a hurry, irrespective of size, strength, weight, and pretty much everything else. Gender may vary based on the womans ability to actually go for it and not hold herself back (i dont know many girls who grew up roughhousing).

I am sure Nocturnal will come in now, if he is still about, and lay claim to half of Australia's females roughhousing from an early age and if that this happened in a bar in Sydney (in a bar in Sydney not frequented by over 30s)...:flushed:
hehehe! Ok! Just having fun, couldn't help myself! : )

 

[MJS]

And what happens in that moment. Surprise (real surprise, not the 'that ***** is fighting back, oh deary me a woman defending herself' surprise) tends to stack the deck in a hurry, irrespective of size, strength, weight, and pretty much everything else. Gender may vary based on the womans ability to actually go for it and not hold herself back (i dont know many girls who grew up roughhousing).

Sure, surprise is certainly good, but I got the impression from the article that Bill was saying that unless it was used 100% of the time, a female would never win. I was simply disagreeing with that.