Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness
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DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
True traditional martial arts hardly even exists anymore, at least the guys who were the real deal, the people who fought for lives, not titles. People have to remember that everything you see in MMA, has all came from martial arts masters way back in the day. Most all martial arts these days is very very watered down from what it originally was, so it can be a accepted public spectacle. Traditional martial arts is not surpassed by MMA, it's the people who went over seas, spent maybe a few years with a legitimate master, and then come back to the states to teach as supposed "grand masters" who have been surpassed by MMA.
Gaius Julius Caesar
Black Belt
Well on groin shots, I agree to a point, I have seen people take shots there with no noticable effect, even once samshed and crushed gripped a guy by the jimmies and he proceeded to introduce my head to every locker in the room.
I have also seen it stop agression cold.
As for small joint manipulations, if you train in in a art that knows how to properly perform them and set them up, they are far from a sucker's bet.
To many schools teach them in a slack manner, so I can see where people would downplay them.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Shoot...one of the best tap-outs I ever saw back in the day was when this Brazilian guy dug this Japanese guy's cup out with his feet while they were grappling around on the ground...he then got in a position that allowed him to start punching the Japanese guy in the groin... he went all "speed bag" on the poor guy and dude tapped out! Now that's what I call a submission!
BTW, if small joint manipulation is such a sucker's bet, then why isn't it allowed?
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
Sorry to keep this thread on Life Support but I feel that traditional martial arts are still alive, just that the conditions for fighting for your life vary aroudn the world depending on where you live. If you live in NYC or in Beverly Hills etc... Your environment dictates that. To say that TMA is dead is far, far , far from the truth and a uneducated assumption.
They are great for "Ooh, ooh that hurts!" in the dojo, but in a real confrontation they are a poor choice relative to other options.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
General statement here.
Groin "shots" are not a suckers bet... unless you have no testicles or a scrotum you are fair game and subject to spinal reflex behind your cognitive control. Its not the be all end all but its is great seasoning on the trauma dinner plate...
I can see if you are just attempting to hit,flick.smack or tap them...this includes punching and kicking...but if I step through you and strike your groin with my forearm then proceed to grab,twist and pull up all while driving you backwards and dumping you on your tailbone then I bet my next paycheck I get positive results....
Likewise, if you are lying on the ground and I do a full body knee drop on your testicles I guarantee I will get positive results...same as if I jumped or stomped on them.
However...small joint manipulation has failed me several times on a bigger stronger resisiting opponent... throw in some sweat and the failure multiplies...
Groin "shots" are not a suckers bet... unless you have no testicles or a scrotum you are fair game and subject to spinal reflex behind your cognitive control. Its not the be all end all but its is great seasoning on the trauma dinner plate...
I can see if you are just attempting to hit,flick.smack or tap them...this includes punching and kicking...but if I step through you and strike your groin with my forearm then proceed to grab,twist and pull up all while driving you backwards and dumping you on your tailbone then I bet my next paycheck I get positive results....
Likewise, if you are lying on the ground and I do a full body knee drop on your testicles I guarantee I will get positive results...same as if I jumped or stomped on them.
However...small joint manipulation has failed me several times on a bigger stronger resisiting opponent... throw in some sweat and the failure multiplies...
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, the closer the training is to real fighting? ...the more effective it will be...
MMA's..practice alot of real stuffs to....Also remember they practice for competition styles alot also...(with rules)
Traditional Arts...have eye gouges, throat strikes,groin strikes,biting,pinching, spitting,....(so do mmas') ...depending on your instructor teachings...
Endurance is key....most traditionist...will not last as long as a MMA artist....because there practice is very intense...
My Son's and Daughters when they wrestle...even football players cannot last as long....(many after football season..come out to join the wrestling team!
Any art...that training with a boxer's intensity or MMA...I say will be close to equal with a MMA fighters...
Take away the rules of ring fights? ...than it will be the best man ...no matter the arts...
Aloha, Verbal works the best....( one police office can rise his hand.and hold up the traffic....for weight lifters here...
MMA's..practice alot of real stuffs to....Also remember they practice for competition styles alot also...(with rules)
Traditional Arts...have eye gouges, throat strikes,groin strikes,biting,pinching, spitting,....(so do mmas') ...depending on your instructor teachings...
Endurance is key....most traditionist...will not last as long as a MMA artist....because there practice is very intense...
My Son's and Daughters when they wrestle...even football players cannot last as long....(many after football season..come out to join the wrestling team!
Any art...that training with a boxer's intensity or MMA...I say will be close to equal with a MMA fighters...
Take away the rules of ring fights? ...than it will be the best man ...no matter the arts...
Aloha, Verbal works the best....( one police office can rise his hand.and hold up the traffic....for weight lifters here...
searcher
Senior Master
Just to hit on a fewpoints.
Groin shots= severe pain in 99% of most males and females.
Smal joint manipulation=good for me until I can break the bone or dislocate the joint.
MMA and TMA, they both have to get rid of rules to make the "street effective." It all comes down to how each person trains and for what reasons.
And gun still trumps TMA and MMA.
Groin shots= severe pain in 99% of most males and females.
Smal joint manipulation=good for me until I can break the bone or dislocate the joint.
MMA and TMA, they both have to get rid of rules to make the "street effective." It all comes down to how each person trains and for what reasons.
And gun still trumps TMA and MMA.
True, but to be fair it should be noted that your sons and daughters wouldn't be in shape to perform well in football either. There is a different 'in shape' for different sports.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Aye. I follow sumo wrestling occasionally. In the past there have been US football players who went to Japan to 'show them how it's done'.
As they discovered to their surprise, they did not stand a chance at all.
Groin shots happen accidentally in MMA fights and evoke differently repsonses from the spectators, to a man there's a loud groan in sympathy, to a woman there's a giggle.The rules say there's time allowed for recovery and every man in the crowd regardless of who they support is there feeling the pain, the women just use the time to chatter. Must be a man thing.
Well, there is the pelvic bone, then there are those other things, that really produce the pain, when hit. Men are taught from early childhood, to protect the family Jewels, at all cost. Once a man has been hit there, the pain is not duplicated any where else on the body.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
This is a clear argument against intelligent design, since any halfway intelligent designer would have put the nads somewhere safe, using an exoskeleton cup if necessarry. Then again it could just have been the designer's warped sense of humor so I guess the answer is still open.
And yes, the pain is quite unlike any other, and unless you are taking pain killers, the usual reaction is to drop into a fetal position, completely uncapable of doing or saying anything until the pain subsides.
And yes, the pain is quite unlike any other, and unless you are taking pain killers, the usual reaction is to drop into a fetal position, completely uncapable of doing or saying anything until the pain subsides.
Although I do think that part of the reaction is a conditioned response - almost psychosomatic. Granted, sometimes the pain is intense, but there are other times that the initial response is to curl up and not move, but then, on second survey, it's not that bad. I've had both . . .
When I teach women's self-defense courses, I teach the groin as what I consider a secondary target. It should definitely be a viable target, but it isn't the ultimate strike. Expect a reaction, but under certain conditions, the outcome of a groin strike will vary widely from completely disabling to just pissing the guy off. So don't rely on it, but it's great in a series.
As for small joint manipulation . . . worth studying and knowing, especially to escape grabs. They can be difficult to defend against, but they are less reliable than techniques that rely on leverage and positioning of the entire body. But, there are plenty of self-defense techniques that I've learned over the years that can easily be modified to include bending a finger back or twisting it around WHILE doing everything else . . . so if I can add it in without compromising my technique, then why not?
When I teach women's self-defense courses, I teach the groin as what I consider a secondary target. It should definitely be a viable target, but it isn't the ultimate strike. Expect a reaction, but under certain conditions, the outcome of a groin strike will vary widely from completely disabling to just pissing the guy off. So don't rely on it, but it's great in a series.
As for small joint manipulation . . . worth studying and knowing, especially to escape grabs. They can be difficult to defend against, but they are less reliable than techniques that rely on leverage and positioning of the entire body. But, there are plenty of self-defense techniques that I've learned over the years that can easily be modified to include bending a finger back or twisting it around WHILE doing everything else . . . so if I can add it in without compromising my technique, then why not?
I agree with you on the groin strike for self defence being secondary, so many non MA arts people say that 'hitting them where it hurts' will do the trick but I think if a man is attacking a women he will instictively position himself to avoid strikes to his groin, making it a secondary target is much more sensible. Focus on other stikes and if the attacker is in a position for a groin strike then go for it.
My instructor when teaching SD will use small joint maniupulation usually to inflict more pain on holds already gotten or to encourage compliance! It works!
searcher
Senior Master
True enough. It is called specificity.
I have had World Class Triathletes come to my kickboxing class and get sick within 20 minutes.
