Hands at the midsection when kicking

[skribs]

My first study of TKD was a university club in 1990, under a 3rd dan from Hong Kong.

We used to practise the "Repeated Kick" (low / high) similar to 2:36 in the opening post, but with a turning ("roundhouse") kick.

I never saw that at any other TKD club since. (I've been to about 5 clubs, with a ~25 year break from 1992-2008 ).

We've done those in drills in my school, but they're not allowed in sparring.

Maybe individual clubs will allow it, but based on what I can tell from my experiences and research, they're few and far between. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course.

 

[Argus]

If you stay upright, as in the photo you posted, it's important to keep the head covered. If you lean backwards a lot, as in the other examples, it's not. Because the lean means the head is no longer in reach. It also means it will take you longer to recover from the kick and your follow up will be delayed.

This is the correct answer. In Wing Chun, we pretty much only do low and mid-section kicks, keeping our body vertical. The hands are kept high to protect the face and upper body, and to continue the attack the moment the foot lands. A kick often concludes with the foot landing, taking a step, and punching all at the same time.
Leaning backwards, your body and especially your head is out of danger for the most part, but you have to worry about your balance being taken if your leg is grabbed, as well as coutner kicks to your supporting leg (which can be really nasty). Granted, both of those things aren't generally allowed in a sports context -- the latter for good reason, as there's a high chance of injury. But it's a real world danger to be very aware of.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was watching this video and wondered why the hands would be approximately stationary at the midsection when kicking.

To me, it doesn't help the offence in terms of power, and it is not good defence.

The only reason I can think of is there would be very little "tell" from the hands as to which kick is coming. Or perhaps it is to show skill level by not having to move the hands in a natural way (counter to the legs like in walking).

Any thoughts?

The way I was taught (and part of how I teach) kicks is even more of what you're discussing here. We learn to do our first kick(s) with hands at rest on the hips.

I think there are two reasons (at least) for this kind of training. One, because new students tend to want to throw arms around to balance themselves. Giving the arms a job during initial learning (staying at rest on the hips, in our training) helps them develop correct balance. Secondly, it lets the arms operate independently from the legs, from early training. This way, at least in theory, variations of how the kick is used (while blocking, etc.) are easier to access.

I think there's utility in practices like this, where restrictions are placed to force development of specific attributes, though there are certainly other ways to develop those attributes, and arguably some more practical and direct approaches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you think there is value in teaching a big motion, then reducing it once the coordination is learnt? I.e., do you think they are halfway there, or they just learnt wrong from the beginning?

I do. A new learner doesn't yet have enough knowledge to know what to pay attention to, nor usually enough body control to be subtle. If you give them a somewhat exaggerated version, focusing on what you consider to be the most important points for a beginner, they can get those points more "right". Then, as they progress, you can refine those points and work on other bits, as well.

Of course, that can be taken to an extreme.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My first study of TKD was a university club in 1990, under a 3rd dan from Hong Kong.

We used to practise the "Repeated Kick" (low / high) similar to 2:36 in the opening post, but with a turning ("roundhouse") kick.

I never saw that at any other TKD club since. (I've been to about 5 clubs, with a ~25 year break from 1992-2008 ).

We teach this sort of kicking. With all sorts of kicks. As a matter of fact, a low/high side kick combo is taught in Koryo. So it's taught in an awful lot of TKD schools.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you want to be pedantic, which apparently you do, WT is TKD.

No, it's not. TKD is a martial art. WT is a sports governing body. They do not teach TKD. They have no curriculum. They award no rank. WT is clearly not TKD. Or any martial art.

At this point, I would have to ask you to show me ONE Taekwondo organization that even does allow leg kicks.

Well that's easy. The American MooDukKwan Taekwondo Association.
You're also confusing the small subset of TKD that is encompassed by tournament rules with the art of TKD, which includes lots of stuff that has apparently (from what you write) been neglected in your training.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We teach this sort of kicking. With all sorts of kicks. As a matter of fact, a low/high side kick combo is taught in Koryo. So it's taught in an awful lot of TKD schools.

Yes, I thought of that after my post. But then I figured I mentioned the turning kick low/high,so figured I would leave my post rather than edit it. Thanks for the comment!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

. In Wing Chun, we pretty much only do low and mid-section kicks, keeping our body vertical. The hands are kept high to protect the face and upper body, and to continue the attack the moment the foot lands. A kick often concludes with the foot landing, taking a step, and punching all at the same time.

Crazy as this sounds, one of my first instructors was a TKD yellow belt....he was from Hong Kong and had studied Wing Chun and Kung Fu since he was a kid.

I was a white belt, and he was a yellow belt, and we would practice martial arts together in the university gym.

Similar to what you are saying, he used to show me from Wing Chun a stomping kick with a simultaneous punch. That was a high opener, to think about deception as an important tactic.

Also, back to my thread here, on about my 5th TKD class, I noticed his stance during exercises was more like a boxer. Everyone else was more traditional TKD, wide, with an arm a mid section or lower. I asked why he kept both hands high, whereas everyone else had a hand lower.

"People in Canada only want to punch you in the head, so that's what I want to protect" he said.

I thought about that for a moment and asked, "You said in Canada. What about in Hong Kong?".

He answered, "Oh, they'll kick you in the balls, You may want to keep a hand low there". Hilarious!

Here is is by the way, some 20 years later.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Giving the arms a job during initial learning (staying at rest on the hips, in our training) helps them develop correct balance. Secondly, it lets the arms operate independently from the legs, from early training. This way, at least in theory, variations of how the kick is used (while blocking, etc.) are easier to access.

That's interesting. I was thinking it would be best to start easy, and then get harder. It seems if I understand correctly you prefer to start harder. I hadn't considered that - thanks.

 

[skribs]

No, it's not. TKD is a martial art. WT is a sports governing body. They do not teach TKD. They have no curriculum. They award no rank. WT is clearly not TKD. Or any martial art.

What does the T stand for in WT? Taekwondo. What is the sport that they cover? Taekwondo. WT and KKW are very much linked together. WT recognizes KKW ranks for competition. WT uses KKW forms for poomsae competition. KKW schools use WT rules for training, and attend WT competitions.

Even if KKW and WT weren't linked, WT is still a Taekwondo competition authority. You must be gaslighting me at this point.

Well that's easy. The American MooDukKwan Taekwondo Association.

Can you provide a link to a site or document with the sparring rules for that association? All I can find is a website that lists about 4 schools. Which tells me that it's definitely in the minority.

You're also confusing the small subset of TKD that is encompassed by tournament rules with the art of TKD, which includes lots of stuff that has apparently (from what you write) been neglected in your training.

Back to gaslighting. I must be wrong because I've been taken advantage of, where your training is of course the baseline by which all others should be judged. The funny thing is you're accusing my Master of abuse in this post, (abuse by neglect), but you're one of the most abusive people on this forum. Every time you gaslight me or bully other people, I can't help but feel sorry for your students. Maybe my Master didn't do everything you think should be included in the curriculum. I'll take that any day of the week over the way I see you treat people.

Back on topic, I've been on this board and others for 10 years, and this is the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about doing leg kicks in TKD sparring.

Even if they do, my original point was that it was negative points. Which suggests we are talking about the sport side of things. So once again, even if you are technically correct that the majority of schools spar with leg kicks (which is something that I will need a lot more proof before I believe), and that is a different argument than the one you originally set out to refute.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

At this point, I would have to ask you to show me ONE Taekwondo organization that even does allow leg kicks. Or provide some statistic which will prove that WT/KKW and ITF schools are not the vast majority of TKD schools. If you can provide both, it will at least give your argument some merit.

So once again, even if you are technically correct that the majority of schools spar with leg kicks (which is something that I will need a lot more proof before I believe), and that is a different argument than the one you originally set out to refute.

I think you and DD may be talking past each other a bit.

If I understand your argument correctly, it goes like this:

1. The TKD tournament rules as set by the organizations which run or sanction the large majority of said tournaments do not allow kicks to the legs. (To the best of my knowledge as an outsider, this is correct.)
2. Most TKD in-school sparring follows these tournament rules. (I don't have personal knowledge of this, so I'd be curious to hear input from other TKD practitioners. How strictly do you follow tournament rules vs other kinds of sparring in your dojangs?)
3. Therefore leg kicks aren't part of TKD or aren't part of TKD sparring or aren't part of TKD tournament competition or aren't part of one of those "in general" ... I'm not totally clear on where you're drawing the line here.
4. Therefore if someone claims otherwise, they need to provide an example of a major TKD tournament sanctioning organization which allows leg kicks.

Meanwhile, DD's argument (if I understand it correctly) goes something like this:

1. TKD is a martial art which includes leg kicks.
2. The martial art of TKD is not defined or constrained by the tournament ruleset(s) of whatever organizations happen to sanction the majority of tournament events.
3. His school teaches leg kicks and allows them in sparring and he knows of other schools which do the same. (I don't believe he claimed anywhere that the majority of TKD schools allow them in sparring.)

I could see people having similar arguments about BJJ. The overwhelming majority of BJJ tournaments do not allow any striking and are mostly devoted to grappling on the ground. Therefore someone might argue that BJJ doesn't have striking or defenses against striking and has only minimal standup grappling. But if you come to my classes, you will spend about half the time on standup grappling and you will spend time sparring with strikes, because I teach BJJ as a martial art, not just a sport.

So I believe you are correct that TKD tournament competition in general does not allow leg kicks. I also believe that DD is correct that TKD as a martial art does include leg kicks and some TKD schools use those in sparring. I also believe that if the two of you would be a little less cranky then you could agree on those two points and spend less time arguing over trying to prove the other wrong.

 

[skribs]

(I don't believe he claimed anywhere that the majority of TKD schools allow them in sparring.)

I believe he has:

You're also confusing the small subset of TKD that is encompassed by tournament rules with the art of TKD, which includes lots of stuff that has apparently (from what you write) been neglected in your training.

Calling the sparring rules that I know a "small subset of TKD" and then going on to suggest my Master was negligent by being part of this small subset.

He does this too much for me to think it's a coincidence or miscommunication. He'll make a bold claim, get called out on it, and then resort to personal attacks against you, your teachers, or your school.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I believe he has:

You're also confusing the small subset of TKD that is encompassed by tournament rules with the art of TKD

Calling the sparring rules that I know a "small subset of TKD"

Yeah, I think we're reading that bit very differently. As far as I can tell, DD is saying that tournament sparring rules encompass only a small subset of the martial art of TKD, not that the sparring rules you know are a small subset of TKD tournament sparring rules.

Honestly, I think that would be a fair statement about lots of martial arts which have a competition component. Karate, TKD, BJJ, Judo, most forms of CMA (for those who compete in some sort of tournament), etc. They all have plenty of techniques in the martial art which are not generally included in competition. It's also not that uncommon for schools to include variations of sparring which don't match up with the standard tournament competition ruleset.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

On April 1st, I'll create a thread asking if TKD includes grappling

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Wing Chun, we pretty much only do low and mid-section kicks,

During the beginning level of the long fist training, a long fist guy will only kick (or step) on opponent's knee joint. It's called "chain kicks".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, I think we're reading that bit very differently. As far as I can tell, DD is saying that tournament sparring rules encompass only a small subset of the martial art of TKD, not that the sparring rules you know are a small subset of TKD tournament sparring rules.

That is exactly what I wrote, and quite clearly, I thought.

 

[Dirty Dog]

On April 1st, I'll create a thread asking if TKD includes grappling

It does, just as grappling arts include striking. It's a matter of emphasis, not exclusion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

because I teach BJJ as a martial art, not just a sport.

I just don't understand why would anyone allow the tournament ruleset to decide how he train.

- I teach BJJ as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach TKD as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach long fist as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach Chinese wrestling as a martial art, not just a sport.
- ...

For example, the "leg spring" is allowed in Chinese wrestling tournament. But the knee strike is not allowed. When we train the leg spring, we always traing the knee strike as follow up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I just don't understand why would anyone allow the tournament ruleset to decide how he train.

- I teach BJJ as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach TKD as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach long fist as a martial art, not just a sport.
- I teach Chinese wrestling as a martial art, not just a sport.
- ...

There are some people who are only interested in the sport aspect of combat sports/martial arts. For those people I suppose it makes sense to spend their available training time just focusing on the aspects which will help them win tournaments.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are some people who are only interested in the sport aspect of combat sports/martial arts. For those people I suppose it makes sense to spend their available training time just focusing on the aspects which will help them win tournaments.

The Chinese wrestling as a sport also has this issue. You take your opponent down. You win and your opponent loses. But in the real world, the fight has not finished yet. This is why some people cross train the ground game, some people add in following on striking.

The difference between sport and combat is how you may finish it.