Hands at the midsection when kicking

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I was watching this video and wondered why the hands would be approximately stationary at the midsection when kicking.

To me, it doesn't help the offence in terms of power, and it is not good defence.

The only reason I can think of is there would be very little "tell" from the hands as to which kick is coming. Or perhaps it is to show skill level by not having to move the hands in a natural way (counter to the legs like in walking).

Any thoughts?

 

[Jared Traveler]

The same side arm as the kicking leg should act as a "cat tail" for balance, and often be used to help generate torque and power. Defense should be gained primarily through moving the head and boy off line or away from some of your other opponents weapons.

 

[skribs]

Short Answer: Less angular momentum, which is useful for spinning kicks or for rapid-fire kicks.

Another Possible Short Answer: Because it looks good and that's the main purpose of the forms.

Long Answer:
There are different ways of abusing physics to achieve a roughly similar result in martial arts. For example, in a "Muay Thai" roundhouse kick where you step out with the left leg and then swing the right leg through, the left leg is pulling the kick through. In a "Taekwondo" roundhouse kick where you chamber the right leg, pivot on the left foot, and snap the right leg; the left leg is pushing the kick through. Both generate a tremendous amount of power in the same direction, but with different biomechanics.

In the case of the arms, there are at least 5 ways they can be used properly during a roundhouse kick:

• Swinging as a counter-balance
• Driving through the target
• Protecting yourself
• Grappling
• Clutched in tight

What is the benefit of each of these?

Swinging as a counter-balance gives you the best rhythm with your kicks. It gives you the best balance with the "Muay Thai" kick, and gives you good balance of speed and power with the "Taekwondo" kick. However, it does leave your head open, so if you don't snap back to the guard fast enough, there is an opportunity for your opponent. Also, in my experience as a coach, I've seen way too many people overexaggerate this motion to the point it actually slows them down.

Driving through the target (meaning your shoulder and elbow turn with the rest of your body) is a very committed kick, but is the best way to get your full weight into the kick, especially with a "Taekwondo" kick.

Protecting yourself is important. On some kicks, your head naturally turns away from your opponent. However, often in Taekwondo you're both kicking at the same time. "Protecting yourself" doesn't necessarily mean protecting your head. You might have your hands nearer your midsection to protect against body kicks.

Grappling is something you see more in self-defense curriculum, since it's not allowed in WT rules. For example, punch defense where you block, grab, and then pull them into the kick.

Clutched in tight gives you less angular momentum, and a much more stable upper body. This is very useful for spinning kicks like back kick, spinning hook kick, or tornado kick. It's good for fast kicks that are mostly from the leg, especially the kind of kicks where you do multiple kicks without putting your foot down.

Here's a video by Ginger Ninja Trickster (who has probably the best kicking tutorials on Youtube) covering these kinds of kicks. You'll notice his arms aren't clutched in tight, but it is the same concept.

I also notice the same thing in this video with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. Again, his arms aren't clutched in the same way, but they're relatively static compared to the pump motion you see others do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I was watching this video and wondered why the hands would be approximately stationary at the midsection when kicking.

To me, it doesn't help the offence in terms of power, and it is not good defence.

It depends on how you may guide your opponent's leading arm when you kick.

If you guide your opponent's leading arm

- up, your leading arm will be above your head.
- down, your leading arm will be below your waist.

If you don't guide your opponent's arm, you may put your leading arm wherever is proper (protect your head, balance, ...).

Here is one example that you pull down both your opponent's arms when you kick him.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

The same side arm as the kicking leg should act as a "cat tail" for balance, and often be used to help generate torque and power. Defense should be gained primarily through moving the head and boy off line or away from some of your other opponents weapons.

When I mentioned defence, I was thinking more of the hand by the side of the head, as in the photo here of Gabriel Varga, or posting.

But I agree not being there is the ideal defence!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Short Answer: Less angular momentum, which is useful for spinning kicks or for rapid-fire kicks.

Another Possible Short Answer: Because it looks good and that's the main purpose of the forms.

.....

Here's a video by Ginger Ninja Trickster (who has probably the best kicking tutorials on Youtube) covering these kinds of kicks. You'll notice his arms aren't clutched in tight, but it is the same concept.

I sometimes wonder how much is for looks!

Digressing a bit on "the best kicking tutorials..." GNT hasn't had anything new in quite some time. Kwonkicker was a favourite of mine, but he removed ALL his videos. Consequently, although both guys may have other projects, I have to believe that unfortunately Youtube doesn't pay much more martial art videos.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Also, in my experience as a coach, I've seen way too many people overexaggerate this motion to the point it actually slows them down.

Do you think there is value in teaching a big motion, then reducing it once the coordination is learnt? I.e., do you think they are halfway there, or they just learnt wrong from the beginning?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Clutched in tight gives you less angular momentum, and a much more stable upper body. This is very useful for spinning kicks like back kick,

I had come to the conclusion previousy that a key to the back kick is to STOP the spinning. So for a back kick with the right leg as an example, I could pull my left arm back, or my left elbow back, or as one master taught, sort of punch with the right hand. Or bring teh left arm/elbow a little back, and move the right arm a little forwards (away from my opponent),

By the way, I concluded a long time ago "Never say never"and as a corollary, there is not 1 "right way"to do a technique. So thanks for your viewpoints and guidance - I really appreciate it!

 

[Dirty Dog]

When I mentioned defence, I was thinking more of the hand by the side of the head, as in the photo here of Gabriel Varga, or posting.

If you stay upright, as in the photo you posted, it's important to keep the head covered. If you lean backwards a lot, as in the other examples, it's not. Because the lean means the head is no longer in reach. It also means it will take you longer to recover from the kick and your follow up will be delayed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you lean backwards a lot, as in the other examples, it's not. Because the lean means the head is no longer in reach.

Agree! Here is a good example.

 

[skribs]

Do you think there is value in teaching a big motion, then reducing it once the coordination is learnt? I.e., do you think they are halfway there, or they just learnt wrong from the beginning?

Yes, and it should be a guided process.

The folks I'm thinking of, however, went in the opposite direction. They started with the controlled motion, and then at upper belts started getting more and more exaggerated with their counterbalance pumps.

I had come to the conclusion previousy that a key to the back kick is to STOP the spinning. So for a back kick with the right leg as an example, I could pull my left arm back, or my left elbow back, or as one master taught, sort of punch with the right hand. Or bring teh left arm/elbow a little back, and move the right arm a little forwards (away from my opponent),

Your leg cuts off the angular momentum.

By the way, I concluded a long time ago "Never say never"and as a corollary, there is not 1 "right way"to do a technique. So thanks for your viewpoints and guidance - I really appreciate it!

There is:

1. Wrong way for the poomsae
2. Wrong way for the lesson/situation
3. Wrong way for the art/sport
4. "Wrong" way that makes sense tactically in this situation
5. Wrong way in every sense of the word

For example, let's take a roundhouse kick:

1. If the form specifies how a roundhouse kick should be done, then it should be done that way for forms.
2. If the drill calls for you to do as many kicks as you can in 1 minute, then kicks that maximize speed are good, and kicks that focus on form or power are bad for that drill. Also at this level: my opinion is beginners should have 1 "right way" of doing things that they can build consistent habits, and learn variations later on.
3. The Muay Thai leg kick is a devastating kick. It's negative points in Taekwondo, so it's a bad kick in Taekwondo.
4. In sparring, one version of the roundhouse kick I do will chamber like an outside-to-inside crescent kick. Seen on its own out of context it looks very weird. Throw a few crescent kicks and then throw this kick, and I often trick my opponents into bringing their arms up to expose their ribs.
5. It never makes sense to just swing the side of your calf into your opponent and call it a "roundhouse kick".

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

For example, let's take a roundhouse kick:

1. 
   
2. The Muay Thai leg kick is a devastating kick. It's negative points in Taekwondo, so it's a bad kick in Taekwondo.

I was not aware of that. What exactly leads to the negative points? Contact with the shin?

 

[skribs]

I was not aware of that. What exactly leads to the negative points? Contact with the shin?

Not allowed to kick the leg.

Contact with the shin is okay. It may or may not score, depending on the judging system used. For example, with electronic sparring gear, it wouldn't record the hit without the foot sensor contacting the chestguard. If corner judges are scoring, it may or may not count, depending on if they require you to hit with the instep or if they just care that the hit landed.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Not allowed to kick the leg.

Contact with the shin is okay. It may or may not score, depending on the judging system used. For example, with electronic sparring gear, it wouldn't record the hit without the foot sensor contacting the chestguard. If corner judges are scoring, it may or may not count, depending on if they require you to hit with the instep or if they just care that the hit landed.

Ah I got it. by "leg kick", you mean kick to, not with, the leg....My fault!

 

[skribs]

Ah I got it. by "leg kick", you mean kick to, not with, the leg....My fault!

Although in general that style of kicking is not as optimal for TKD competitions, since points are what matters.

Maybe if they switch to the life-bar style of electronic sparring gear.

 

[Dirty Dog]

1. The Muay Thai leg kick is a devastating kick. It's negative points in Taekwondo, so it's a bad kick in Taekwondo.

Incorrect. It is negative points in WT tournaments. It is not a bad kick in Taekwondo.

 

[skribs]

Incorrect. It is negative points in WT tournaments. It is not a bad kick in Taekwondo.

Technically you are correct. However, it's not a bad generalization to make. Leg kicks are not allowed in WT or in ITF TKD tournaments. Sparring in class typically follows tournament rules, and most classes are going to be in organizations that compete in WT or ITF rules.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Technically you are correct. However, it's not a bad generalization to make.

Yes, it is. WT is not TKD. It's not even a style. Kicking the leg is a good thing. I strongly encourage it.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Yes, it is. WT is not TKD. It's not even a style. Kicking the leg is a good thing. I strongly encourage it.

My first study of TKD was a university club in 1990, under a 3rd dan from Hong Kong.

We used to practise the "Repeated Kick" (low / high) similar to 2:36 in the opening post, but with a turning ("roundhouse") kick.

I never saw that at any other TKD club since. (I've been to about 5 clubs, with a ~25 year break from 1992-2008 ).

 

[skribs]

Yes, it is. WT is not TKD. It's not even a style. Kicking the leg is a good thing. I strongly encourage it.

Leg kicks are not allowed in WT or in ITF TKD tournaments. Sparring in class typically follows tournament rules, and most classes are going to be in organizations that compete in WT or ITF rules. (Yes, I just copied and pasted the part you left out, because it addresses what you said).

If you want to be pedantic, which apparently you do, WT is TKD. I think what you mean is that WT does not encompass all TKD schools. You would be correct. However, WT and ITF are the two biggest organizations. I know that WT and KKW are technically separate, but most schools that teach KKW curriculum compete in WT events.

The vast majority of organizations I was able to find are either ITF or KKW/WT affiliated. I could not find any information about MDK online. I'd be curious to what the sparring rules are for MDK tournaments.

However, I've decided to humor you and look at other organizations.

• ATA - no kicking below the waist
• Traditional TKD Chung Do Kwan Association - noncontact sparring only
• UFAF (allows groin kicks, but not leg kicks)
• Tiger Rock - no kicking below the waist

At this point, I would have to ask you to show me ONE Taekwondo organization that even does allow leg kicks. Or provide some statistic which will prove that WT/KKW and ITF schools are not the vast majority of TKD schools. If you can provide both, it will at least give your argument some merit.