Guns make people overconfident.

[Steve]

Certainly not!!! But many of the precepts overlap.

Maybe I would have worded it better if I had used the words physical confrontation instead of war.

Sounds good. I’m concerned with the militarization of the police, so I’ll freely admit I’m wary of using this kind of language to describe any kind of healthy operation. Police aren’t soldiers and criminals aren’t enemy. There is some overlap, but the size of that overlap depends significantly on one’s fundamental views about guns, violence, citizenship, and the core purpose of police. (All of which is way too political for this site).

 

[HighKick]

Sounds good. I’m concerned with the militarization of the police, so I’ll freely admit I’m wary of using this kind of language to describe any kind of healthy operation. Police aren’t soldiers and criminals aren’t enemy. There is some overlap, but the size of that overlap depends significantly on one’s fundamental views about guns, violence, citizenship, and the core purpose of police. (All of which is way too political for this site).

If truly a criminal, why do you Not consider them an enemy? They may not be Your enemy, but certainly would be of the person they offended.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If truly a criminal, why do you Not consider them an enemy? They may not be Your enemy, but certainly would be of the person they offended.

I think the point is that not all crimes are capital crimes, nor should they be.

 

[drop bear]

If truly a criminal, why do you Not consider them an enemy? They may not be Your enemy, but certainly would be of the person they offended.

Children break the rules. Do teachers treat them as the enemy?

 

[Steve]

If truly a criminal, why do you Not consider them an enemy? They may not be Your enemy, but certainly would be of the person they offended.

That’s just not how I roll, I guess. Depends on what they did and how they did it. Not every criminal is an “enemy of the people”. And not every person who commits a crime is irredeemable.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Charlotte is not even close to one of the roughest cities in the world.

Ever been there?

 

[gyoja]

Ever been there?

Yes, both places mentioned.

 

[HighKick]

That’s just not how I roll, I guess. Depends on what they did and how they did it. Not every criminal is an “enemy of the people”. And not every person who commits a crime is irredeemable.

Big, big difference between being irredeemable and being an enemy.

 

[HighKick]

I think the point is that not all crimes are capital crimes, nor should they be.

I see it the same way but @Steve inferred it as much more binary.

 

[Steve]

Big, big difference between being irredeemable and being an enemy.

Yeah, the guy who sees anyone who commits a crime as the enemy says I’m binary. Give me a break. Haha.

 

[Steve]

I think the point is that not all crimes are capital crimes, nor should they be.

Not everyone who commits a capital crime is my enemy, even though they should be accountable for their actions.

 

[drop bear]

Dalton said it and everyone who uses force on people for a living should do it.

 

[HighKick]

Not everyone who commits a capital crime is my enemy, even though they should be accountable for their actions.

How to you propose capital/corporal punishment be dispensed?

 

[HighKick]

Yeah, the guy who sees anyone who commits a crime as the enemy says I’m binary. Give me a break. Haha.

Let's look at it another way. Do you know people that have Not committed a crime that you see as an enemy?

 

[Steve]

Let's look at it another way. Do you know people that have Not committed a crime that you see as an enemy?

I’m really not sure what you’re asking. I don’t, as a general matter of course, have enemies. I just don’t see the world as people who are my allies and people who are enemies. There are enemies of the state. As a country, when we go to war we have formal enemies. But on an individual level, I’m not spending time dividing people up like that. So, no, I can’t think of a single person, individually, whom I’d call my enemy, whether they’ve committed a crime or not.

Note that this isn’t the same as believing everyone’s my friend, or even that folks aren’t dangerous. Or that people should be unaccountable for their decisions.

I hope that helps a little. As I said, you seem to be driving for something in particular and I’m not sure what.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What do you consider competent? And what qualifies you to make that determination?

From the student manual of one of the main shooting schools I've taken classes at.

Five Levels Of Competence

INTENTIONALLY INCOMPETENT
Believe it or not, there are those who own and carry firearms that clearly know of their incompetence, but lack even the slightest bit of courage or motivation to improve their skills. The II avoids training out of laziness and fear of further exposing his incompetence to others. Graveyards are filled with the II. Sadly, the II often take those who count on them most - partners, family, and team members - to the grave with him. Unfortunately, the II cannot be helped to any substantial degree due to his lack of motivation to retain any training. Time wasted by coddling the II is better spent on the student who wants to improve.

UNCONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
The UI does not know that he does not know. The UI represents approximately 95% of all gun owners and includes people (police and military) who carry a gun for a living. The UI is incompetent but does not know he is incompetent because he has had no training or poor training and has not yet experienced a tactical situation, which would clearly demonstrate his inadequacies. Examples of the UI can be found everywhere.

The police officer that boasts that he has never had to draw his pistol in 10 years of duty is a lucky UI.

The officer who only practices shooting his weapon a few times per year only to pass the POST or department mandatory range qualifications is UI.

The gun owner who buys a gun and box of ammo, only attends mandatory CCW classes, fires a few shots at the range and then places the gun in his closet, confident he can use it effectively to protect himself is UI.

The hunter who only attends mandatory hunter safety and only shoots once a year to sight-in his rifle before going hunting is UI.

Military personnel who only shoot the same course of fire as in Basic training (even with an “Expert” qualification) are still UI.

Unfortunately, the UI often learns of his ineptitude for the first time under the most extreme stress situations. When the flag flies, the UI’s first lesson may be his last. Any gun owner who has never attended an organized shooting

CONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
If the UI survives his first lesson, and is smart enough to place the blame on the man in the mirror, the UI automatically graduates to the level of the CI. The CI now knows he does not know and seeks help in acquiring the proper skills in the use of his weapon. The CI is a motivated student of weaponscraft. Although the CI is still operating at a level of incompetence, the CI recognizes his faults, and in doing so can focus his efforts toward reaching a level of competency.

CONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
If the CI makes the effort to learn, through study, proper training and practice, the CI develops into the CC. The length of time needed to develop from CI to CC is directly related to the quality of the training and the motivation of the student. The CC is able to manipulate his weapon and clear malfunctions in a safe and efficient manner. The CC understands the principles of marksmanship, shot placement, and ammunition management. Quick assumptions of field positions and the use of cover are familiar concepts of the CC. The CC has adopted the combat mind set as his own. As the level indicates, the CC is very quick and competent, but must constantly think about what he is doing. Every decision and action occurs as a result of an intricate thought process and has not yet reached a reflex response level. The CC will respond effectively to most stress situations that do not require split second decisions or actions.

UNCONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
As the fifth and ultimate level of competence implies, the UC has programmed his mind and body (after thousands of repetitions) to react in a fraction of a second with constant responses that require no perceivable thought process. The UC functions flawlessly even under stressful situations because the UC’s extensive training overrides his conscious thought process. As you can imagine, the UC is not common in today’s society. This sad fact is due more to lack of proper training than to lack of motivation. Here are a few examples of a UC in action.

In the heat of a gun battle, a pistolero hears a “click” as his hammer falls on a defective round. He reflexively taps the magazine, rack-flips the action, and hammers two rounds into his adversary’s chest without consciously recognizing that his gun had malfunctioned.

Upon sighting a trophy, a hunter slings up as he drops into a steady sitting position. He fires, manipulates the bolt on recoil - without the rifle leaving his shoulder or his eyes leaving the game - producing a one shot kill and he does it all in less time than it takes to read this sentence.

The combat shotgunner, confronted with a rapidly deteriorating hostage situation at 10 yards, immediately aims his front sight at the outside ear of the gunman, and then confidently delivers half of the shotgun’s pattern to the gunman’s head.

 

[drop bear]

From the student manual of one of the main shooting schools I've taken classes at.

Five Levels Of Competence

INTENTIONALLY INCOMPETENT
Believe it or not, there are those who own and carry firearms that clearly know of their incompetence, but lack even the slightest bit of courage or motivation to improve their skills. The II avoids training out of laziness and fear of further exposing his incompetence to others. Graveyards are filled with the II. Sadly, the II often take those who count on them most - partners, family, and team members - to the grave with him. Unfortunately, the II cannot be helped to any substantial degree due to his lack of motivation to retain any training. Time wasted by coddling the II is better spent on the student who wants to improve.

UNCONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
The UI does not know that he does not know. The UI represents approximately 95% of all gun owners and includes people (police and military) who carry a gun for a living. The UI is incompetent but does not know he is incompetent because he has had no training or poor training and has not yet experienced a tactical situation, which would clearly demonstrate his inadequacies. Examples of the UI can be found everywhere.

The police officer that boasts that he has never had to draw his pistol in 10 years of duty is a lucky UI.

The officer who only practices shooting his weapon a few times per year only to pass the POST or department mandatory range qualifications is UI.

The gun owner who buys a gun and box of ammo, only attends mandatory CCW classes, fires a few shots at the range and then places the gun in his closet, confident he can use it effectively to protect himself is UI.

The hunter who only attends mandatory hunter safety and only shoots once a year to sight-in his rifle before going hunting is UI.

Military personnel who only shoot the same course of fire as in Basic training (even with an “Expert” qualification) are still UI.

Unfortunately, the UI often learns of his ineptitude for the first time under the most extreme stress situations. When the flag flies, the UI’s first lesson may be his last. Any gun owner who has never attended an organized shooting

CONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
If the UI survives his first lesson, and is smart enough to place the blame on the man in the mirror, the UI automatically graduates to the level of the CI. The CI now knows he does not know and seeks help in acquiring the proper skills in the use of his weapon. The CI is a motivated student of weaponscraft. Although the CI is still operating at a level of incompetence, the CI recognizes his faults, and in doing so can focus his efforts toward reaching a level of competency.

CONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
If the CI makes the effort to learn, through study, proper training and practice, the CI develops into the CC. The length of time needed to develop from CI to CC is directly related to the quality of the training and the motivation of the student. The CC is able to manipulate his weapon and clear malfunctions in a safe and efficient manner. The CC understands the principles of marksmanship, shot placement, and ammunition management. Quick assumptions of field positions and the use of cover are familiar concepts of the CC. The CC has adopted the combat mind set as his own. As the level indicates, the CC is very quick and competent, but must constantly think about what he is doing. Every decision and action occurs as a result of an intricate thought process and has not yet reached a reflex response level. The CC will respond effectively to most stress situations that do not require split second decisions or actions.

UNCONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
As the fifth and ultimate level of competence implies, the UC has programmed his mind and body (after thousands of repetitions) to react in a fraction of a second with constant responses that require no perceivable thought process. The UC functions flawlessly even under stressful situations because the UC’s extensive training overrides his conscious thought process. As you can imagine, the UC is not common in today’s society. This sad fact is due more to lack of proper training than to lack of motivation. Here are a few examples of a UC in action.

In the heat of a gun battle, a pistolero hears a “click” as his hammer falls on a defective round. He reflexively taps the magazine, rack-flips the action, and hammers two rounds into his adversary’s chest without consciously recognizing that his gun had malfunctioned.

Upon sighting a trophy, a hunter slings up as he drops into a steady sitting position. He fires, manipulates the bolt on recoil - without the rifle leaving his shoulder or his eyes leaving the game - producing a one shot kill and he does it all in less time than it takes to read this sentence.

The combat shotgunner, confronted with a rapidly deteriorating hostage situation at 10 yards, immediately aims his front sight at the outside ear of the gunman, and then confidently delivers half of the shotgun’s pattern to the gunman’s head.

Which is going to be as good an indication of competence as anyone else.

 

[gyoja]

From the student manual of one of the main shooting schools I've taken classes at.

Five Levels Of Competence

INTENTIONALLY INCOMPETENT
Believe it or not, there are those who own and carry firearms that clearly know of their incompetence, but lack even the slightest bit of courage or motivation to improve their skills. The II avoids training out of laziness and fear of further exposing his incompetence to others. Graveyards are filled with the II. Sadly, the II often take those who count on them most - partners, family, and team members - to the grave with him. Unfortunately, the II cannot be helped to any substantial degree due to his lack of motivation to retain any training. Time wasted by coddling the II is better spent on the student who wants to improve.

UNCONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
The UI does not know that he does not know. The UI represents approximately 95% of all gun owners and includes people (police and military) who carry a gun for a living. The UI is incompetent but does not know he is incompetent because he has had no training or poor training and has not yet experienced a tactical situation, which would clearly demonstrate his inadequacies. Examples of the UI can be found everywhere.

The police officer that boasts that he has never had to draw his pistol in 10 years of duty is a lucky UI.

The officer who only practices shooting his weapon a few times per year only to pass the POST or department mandatory range qualifications is UI.

The gun owner who buys a gun and box of ammo, only attends mandatory CCW classes, fires a few shots at the range and then places the gun in his closet, confident he can use it effectively to protect himself is UI.

The hunter who only attends mandatory hunter safety and only shoots once a year to sight-in his rifle before going hunting is UI.

Military personnel who only shoot the same course of fire as in Basic training (even with an “Expert” qualification) are still UI.

Unfortunately, the UI often learns of his ineptitude for the first time under the most extreme stress situations. When the flag flies, the UI’s first lesson may be his last. Any gun owner who has never attended an organized shooting

CONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT
If the UI survives his first lesson, and is smart enough to place the blame on the man in the mirror, the UI automatically graduates to the level of the CI. The CI now knows he does not know and seeks help in acquiring the proper skills in the use of his weapon. The CI is a motivated student of weaponscraft. Although the CI is still operating at a level of incompetence, the CI recognizes his faults, and in doing so can focus his efforts toward reaching a level of competency.

CONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
If the CI makes the effort to learn, through study, proper training and practice, the CI develops into the CC. The length of time needed to develop from CI to CC is directly related to the quality of the training and the motivation of the student. The CC is able to manipulate his weapon and clear malfunctions in a safe and efficient manner. The CC understands the principles of marksmanship, shot placement, and ammunition management. Quick assumptions of field positions and the use of cover are familiar concepts of the CC. The CC has adopted the combat mind set as his own. As the level indicates, the CC is very quick and competent, but must constantly think about what he is doing. Every decision and action occurs as a result of an intricate thought process and has not yet reached a reflex response level. The CC will respond effectively to most stress situations that do not require split second decisions or actions.

UNCONSCIOUSLY COMPETENT
As the fifth and ultimate level of competence implies, the UC has programmed his mind and body (after thousands of repetitions) to react in a fraction of a second with constant responses that require no perceivable thought process. The UC functions flawlessly even under stressful situations because the UC’s extensive training overrides his conscious thought process. As you can imagine, the UC is not common in today’s society. This sad fact is due more to lack of proper training than to lack of motivation. Here are a few examples of a UC in action.

In the heat of a gun battle, a pistolero hears a “click” as his hammer falls on a defective round. He reflexively taps the magazine, rack-flips the action, and hammers two rounds into his adversary’s chest without consciously recognizing that his gun had malfunctioned.

Upon sighting a trophy, a hunter slings up as he drops into a steady sitting position. He fires, manipulates the bolt on recoil - without the rifle leaving his shoulder or his eyes leaving the game - producing a one shot kill and he does it all in less time than it takes to read this sentence.

The combat shotgunner, confronted with a rapidly deteriorating hostage situation at 10 yards, immediately aims his front sight at the outside ear of the gunman, and then confidently delivers half of the shotgun’s pattern to the gunman’s head.

Military personnel who only shoot the same course of fire as in Basic training (even with an “Expert” qualification) are still UI.

Utter nonsense. I have received these guys straight out of OSUT in combat, and they did the job just fine. I know several hunters that are absolutely proficient with their rifle, but only shoot before season due to cost or work requirements. Whoever wrote this needs to get off their high horse.

 

[drop bear]

Utter nonsense. I have received these guys straight out of OSUT in combat, and they did the job just fine. I know several hunters that are absolutely proficient with their rifle, but only shoot before season due to cost or work requirements. Whoever wrote this needs to get off their high horse.

There is no such thing as best. All approaches are equally valid.

 

[gyoja]

There is no such thing as best. All approaches are equally valid.

Who said anything about best?