Gun laws in Australia

[ballen0351]

Yeah but you don't have the gun laws to put a restriction on sales. So of course you would think it is easier to get.

Our situation is different.

Sure we do. I'm a cop and still need to show ID pass a back ground check and wait 7 days before I can pick up my legally purchased hand gun. But we are not talking about legally purchased guns.

 

[billc]

I wonder, from reading some of these posts, if the people against owning guns know the steps to buy a gun. I would expect that people who live in other countries won't know the process, especially because we have 50 different states and there are some differences in the laws. In illinois, you have to get a firearm owners I.D. Card verified through the state police. Then, each time you buy a gun you have to get a check on your card and wait three days.
To get a concealed,carry permit, you have to have 16 hours of fire arm training, 4 hours of law, 4 hours of range, and another 8 hours of training, pass another background check where you give another photo, and if you want to speed up the process you give them your finger prints.

Of course, you can't be a felon, mentally I'll or a drug user (do not get a medical marijuana card if you want a concealed carry permit).

Some states have easier processes, but none of them allow criminals, the mentally ill or drug addicts to have guns...and yet the criminals don't follow the law and there is no process to catch the dangerously mentally ill before they kill...

 

[drop bear]

I wonder, from reading some of these posts, if the people against owning guns know the steps to buy a gun. I would expect that people who live in other countries won't know the process, especially because we have 50 different states and there are some differences in the laws. In illinois, you have to get a firearm owners I.D. Card verified through the state police. Then, each time you buy a gun you have to get a check on your card and wait three days.
To get a concealed,carry permit, you have to have 16 hours of fire arm training, 4 hours of law, 4 hours of range, and another 8 hours of training, pass another background check where you give another photo, and if you want to speed up the process you give them your finger prints.

Of course, you can't be a felon, mentally I'll or a drug user (do not get a medical marijuana card if you want a concealed carry permit).

Some states have easier processes, but none of them allow criminals, the mentally ill or drug addicts to have guns...and yet the criminals don't follow the law and there is no process to catch the dangerously mentally ill before they kill...

Gun control?

You don't register guns though. So it is pretty easy to straw man or private sale.

 

[billc]

In order to " straw man" you personally have,to go through the background check...if you then sell those guns to a criminal for criminal purposes you are committing a crime...a felony. if you are caught you go to jail....

The same with "private sales." if you sell a gun to a felon it is against the law since the felon can't legally posses a gun....when the felon gets,caught they should go to jail...

All of these laws and yet...the criminals ignore them...

The problem isn't the selling of the guns, it is that criminals aren't punished enough to make dealing in illegal guns unprofitable...

 

[billc]

again...please explain what registering guns does to stop or prevent crime?

No one has ever explained, at all, why this magic word is so wonderful or helpful...it is however the first step to mandatory turn ins of specific models of weapons...by law abiding people...

Criminals do not get permits, background checks or register their guns...

So please, please tell me what registering guns will do to stop any crime at all...

The most recent mass shooters...permits, background checks, magazine limits were all enforced and obeyed...and they didn't stop the killer...

The worst mass killers in the world who used guns to kill we're in Norway and South Korea didn't obey their countries laws either...


Someone, please explain how registering guns actually works...

And straw man purchases...the last big case of that...was Obama forcing the border area gun stores,to allow straw purchases of guns to the drug cartels...read the accounts of the local gun stores...they didn't want to sell the guns but were told to by the ATF...

The myth of registering guns...

http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm

Registration and licensing have no effect on crime, as criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Indeed, a national survey of prisoners conducted by Wright and Rossi for the Department of Justice found that 82% agreed that "gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens; criminals will always be able to get guns."


Further, felons are constitutionally exempt from a gun registration requirement. According to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Haynes v. U.S., since felons are prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, compelling them to register firearms would violate the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination. 8 Only law-abiding citizens would be required to comply with registration--citizens who have neither committed crime nor have any intention of doing so.

By constitutional law criminals are protected from registering any gun in their possession...

 

[PhotonGuy]

again...please explain what registering guns does to stop or prevent crime?

No one has ever explained, at all, why this magic word is so wonderful or helpful...it is however the first step to mandatory turn ins of specific models of weapons...by law abiding people...

Criminals do not get permits, background checks or register their guns...

So please, please tell me what registering guns will do to stop any crime at all...

The most recent mass shooters...permits, background checks, magazine limits were all enforced and obeyed...and they didn't stop the killer...

The worst mass killers in the world who used guns to kill we're in Norway and South Korea didn't obey their countries laws either...


Someone, please explain how registering guns actually works...

And straw man purchases...the last big case of that...was Obama forcing the border area gun stores,to allow straw purchases of guns to the drug cartels...read the accounts of the local gun stores...they didn't want to sell the guns but were told to by the ATF...

The myth of registering guns...

TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL





By constitutional law criminals are protected from registering any gun in their possession...

Supposedly the anti gun crowd claims that registering guns, and taking other measures to bring about stricter gun control will cut down on gun sales in the black market. The reason why criminals don't need permits, background checks, or gun registration is because their source of guns is the black market, and the black market doesn't require permits, checks, or registrations. By making guns harder to get legally, that will cut down on the stock of the black market or so the anti gun people claim. Im not saying I agree with that Im just pointing out the position the other side is taking.

 

[K-man]

Supposedly the anti gun crowd claims that registering guns, and taking other measures to bring about stricter gun control will cut down on gun sales in the black market. The reason why criminals don't need permits, background checks, or gun registration is because their source of guns is the black market, and the black market doesn't require permits, checks, or registrations. By making guns harder to get legally, that will cut down on the stock of the black market or so the anti gun people claim. Im not saying I agree with that Im just pointing out the position the other side is taking.

There is no single law that will stop gun crime. There are a large number of small steps and a lot of time and effort. By resisting each individual small step the gun lobby can stop any change occurring.

 

[ballen0351]

There is no single law that will stop gun crime. There are a large number of small steps and a lot of time and effort. By resisting each individual small step the gun lobby can stop any change occurring.

We could make it illegal to kill people with guns. Since laws work and all.......

 

[PhotonGuy]

We could make it illegal to kill people with guns. Since laws work and all.......

I though it all ready was illegal. What we need to do is enforce it.

 

[K-man]

We could make it illegal to kill people with guns. Since laws work and all.......

If your existing laws aren't working, perhaps it's time to change the laws. After all, one definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over expecting a different response'.

 

[ballen0351]

If your existing laws aren't working, perhaps it's time to change the laws. After all, one definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over expecting a different response'.

Who says they are not working? Murder and violent crime have been on the decline for many years. Chances of you being murdered are very slim here or anywhere except a few major urban centers which I might add have the harshest gun laws and even there they are trending down. Funny thing as we fill our prisons with bad guys our murder rates fall..........

 

[PhotonGuy]

If your existing laws aren't working, perhaps it's time to change the laws. After all, one definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over expecting a different response'.

No, its time to enforce the laws. If existing laws aren't working its because they aren't being enforced enough.

 

[ballen0351]

Static Data | HumanProgress.org

Dont let the facts get in the way Kman carry on

 

[K-man]

Who says they are not working? Murder and violent crime have been on the decline for many years. Chances of you being murdered are very slim here or anywhere except a few major urban centers which I might add have the harshest gun laws and even there they are trending down. Funny thing as we fill our prisons with bad guys our murder rates fall..........

Incarceration in the United States of America is one of the main forms of punishment, rehabilitation, or both for the commission of felony and other offenses. The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. At year-end 2009, it was 743 adults incarcerated per 100,000 population.
Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The annual National Prisoner Census, conducted on the night of 30 June, counts all people held in Australian prisons who are in the legal custody of adult corrective services, including periodic detainees in New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory, but excluding persons held in juvenile institutions, psychiatric custody and police custody. At any given point in time, most prisoners are serving long sentences for relatively serious offences, but the flow of offenders in and out of prisons consists primarily of people serving short sentences for less serious offences.

At 30 June 2010, there were 29,700 prisoners (sentenced and unsentenced) in Australian adult prisons. This represented an imprisonment rate of 170 prisoners per 100,000 adult population. Of the total prisoner population, 92% (27,472) were men and 8% (2,228) were women. . Of the total prisoner population, 92% (27,472) were men and 8% (2,228) were women.
1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 2012

For the record, the Australian figures include people in jail awaiting trial and the figures are a percentage of adult population.

It is difficult to compare the figures for violent crime as the US figures generally are aggravated assault ...

Aggravated assault is, in some jurisdictions, a stronger form of assault, usually using a deadly weapon. A person has committed an aggravated assault when that person attempts to:


cause serious bodily injury to another person with a deadly weapon
cause grievous bodily harm to another person, such as rape or kidnapping
have sexual relations with a person who is under the age of consent
cause bodily harm by recklessly operating a motor vehicle; often referred to as either vehicular assault or aggravated assault with a motor vehicle.
Aggravated assault can also be charged in cases of attempted harm against police officers or other public servants.

(1) A person who strikes, touches, or moves, or otherwise applies force of any kind to, the person of another, either directly or indirectly, without the other person's consent, or with the other person's consent if the consent is obtained by fraud, or who by any bodily act or gesture attempts or threatens to apply force of any kind to the person of another without the other person's consent, under such circumstances that the person making the attempt or threat has actually or apparently a present ability to effect the person's purpose, is said to assault that other person, and the act is called an assault.


Additionally, all State criminal codes have further definitions of actions that may constitute an assault, such as causing physical discomfort by the use of: heat, light, electrical force, and odorous gases.

But for the record these two sites give an idea.
Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australian Institute of Criminology - Violent crime

But if we stick to homicides
United States 4.7 per 100,000
Australia 1.3 per 100,000

I reckon the Australian rate is way too high yet you reckon your laws are working. I guess we live with different expectations.

 

[PhotonGuy]

For the record, the Australian figures include people in jail awaiting trial and the figures are a percentage of adult population.

It is difficult to compare the figures for violent crime as the US figures generally are aggravated assault ...




But for the record these two sites give an idea.
Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australian Institute of Criminology - Violent crime

But if we stick to homicides
United States 4.7 per 100,000
Australia 1.3 per 100,000

I reckon the Australian rate is way too high yet you reckon your laws are working. I guess we live with different expectations.

Well also, from what I've heard about Australia some of the things that are considered crime in the USA are not considered crime in Australia. Particularly some of the victimless crimes. That could be partially why there isn't as high a prison population in Australia as there is in the USA.

 

[ballen0351]

For the record, the Australian figures include people in jail awaiting trial and the figures are a percentage of adult population.

It is difficult to compare the figures for violent crime as the US figures generally are aggravated assault ...




But for the record these two sites give an idea.
Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australian Institute of Criminology - Violent crime

But if we stick to homicides
United States 4.7 per 100,000
Australia 1.3 per 100,000

I reckon the Australian rate is way too high yet you reckon your laws are working. I guess we live with different expectations.

Yep I recon they are working. As the trend show a downturn for decades. And guess what as we put more criminals in prison the numbers kept falling. So instead of banning guns let's put away criminals that seems to work better

 

[ballen0351]

We also don't have any law in this state called aggravated assault. Each state has its own wording and laws. It really doesn't matter how it's worded however or how hard you want to spin it the trend is DOWN for over 30 years

 

[PhotonGuy]

We also spend too much money to make the prisons nice for the inmates. Running prisons is expensive and the answer to reduce costs is obviously not to turn the inmates loose, or not send people to prison who deserve it, but to cut down on all the amenities in prison that cost so much to have and maintain.

 

[K-man]

We also don't have any law in this state called aggravated assault. Each state has its own wording and laws. It really doesn't matter how it's worded however or how hard you want to spin it the trend is DOWN for over 30 years

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/homicide-by-firearm-v-gun-ownership.jpgView attachment $homicide-by-firearm-v-gun-ownership.jpg

Yep, you're doing a great job. World leaders in fact from this graph. And, the trend is down, certainly but only really since 1993.

The trend is downward during these last decades, but all in all we’re still talking about almost 20.000 murders a year in the U.S. Americans still kill one another at a much higher rate than do residents of comparable western European nations. This gap persists despite a roughly 40 percent drop in the US homicide rate in the last 15 years or so. Americans have been notably more violent than western Europeans since about the mid- or late 19th century. Americans are 4 times more likely to get murdered than Brits, 6 times more likely than Germans, and 13 times more likely than the Japanese. Maybe the US gun culture has something to do with this: guns are used in two-thirds of all murders in the US. In the UK that’s only one in ten. There were over 11.000 gun murders in the US in 2010 (that’s 3.7 victims per 100.000 population vs. 0.04 in the UK) and over 55.000 non-fatal gun injuries.
Statistics on Violence | P.a.p.-Blog // Human Rights Etc.

However, I fail to see how you could feel satisfied with those statistics.

 

[billc]

Hmmm...they always fail to mention the other statistic Kman, the other one you pointed out...that guns are used to stop violent crime over 100,000 times a year here in the states...I do believe that that number is higher than 11,000...unless they do math differently over seas...and keep in mind...the 11,000 number is solid because they can actually count the bodies, while the 100,000 number is actually larger because guns stop crime often with no shots fired and no bodies being created...meaning those cases aren't reported in the crime stats...

And to repeat...100,000 that is the number from the gun grabber,crowd so it Is the lowest number they could find...the actual number for defensive gun uses is much higher since a lot of defensive gun uses go unreported or un counted, since many times no shots have to be fired and no one gets killed, thereby not counting in he statistics....

So again...if you get rid of guns, the total crime rate goes up by 100,000 crimes,a year spread across robbery, rape and modern since this are the crimes that force victims,to draw their weapons in self defense...

So countries with strict gun control want their citizens to be victims of rape, robbery and murder instead of not being victims because they used a gun to stop the crime...right?

So if you get rid of guns, you get rid of defensive gun uses, and create 100,000 more victims...that is better right?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

(Keep in mind...Hemmenway is an anti-gunner)

Hemenway contends the Kleck and Gertz study is unreliable and no conclusions can be drawn from it.[4] He argues that there are too many "false positives" in the surveys, and finds the NCVS figures more reliable, yielding estimates of around 100,000 defensive gun uses per year. Applying different adjustments, other social scientists suggest that between 250,000 and 370,000 incidences per year.[9]

The Ncvs survey yields about 108,000 defensive gun uses a year...which is 8,000 more...which means that you have a hard dead body number of 11,000 and a gun grabber number of 108,000 defensive gun uses against violent crime...11,000 vs. 108,000...again, no wonder they don't mention the other number...


Hmmmm...other social scientists say how many defensive gun uses...250,000 to 370,000....

. Applying different adjustments, other social scientists suggest that between 250,000 and 370,000 incidences

..no wonder anti-gun activists fail to mention that nip umber when they bring up the dead body count of 11,000...I guess that is because one number is larger than the other....thereby weakening their claims...with their own numbers...

Kleck notes that many other surveys (at least 20) have likewise obtained huge estimates of DGU frequency, from 500,000 to over 3 million per year -common enough to outnumber criminal uses[15] and further notes that studies of methodological errors in surveys concerning other crime-related behaviors and experiences have consistently found that the errors produce, on net, underestimates of the frequency of the behaviors, including victimization experiences, offending behavior, and gun ownership.[15] He has pointed out that critics' assessment of possible errors in surveys are one-sided - that they consider only flaws that would contribute to overestimation of defensive gun use frequency.

Remember K-man...you originally brought up these stats. In another thread...they are your numbers...