Gun Defenses

[Phil Elmore]

If it was not advisable, what was the rational for presenting it in the first place?

You can learn as much from what you shouldn't do as from what you should. That's one of the reasons I publish opposing viewpoints in The Martialist when they're offered. I'm a pretty fair guy (though I'll admit to being provocative; it comes with the territory).

Even the outraged folks who've gotten so bent out of shape over my disdain for their response(s) would be given a fair shot if they chose to submit something. That's how I operate.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I want to hit on 1 point here:

Originally posted by Sigung86
I was unable to post earlier, and may have taken care of that issue. I would like to say to you, and perhaps the folks who saw fit to put you in the position of moderator. "Too Bad"... If you continue as you do, I'm sure you will manage to drive away more folks than you attract.
...
I don't understand why they would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, be a moderator.
...

Dan (and to anyone else confused by how things work here)

Phil Elmore (Sharp Phil) is a "Hosted Forum Moderator". What that means is that he is moderating a forum that we (MartialTalk) host for him. As Dennis stated "he pays for space to produce his "OWN FORUM"". That forum is "The Martialist Forum". If you would take a moment to review the guidelines in that area, you will see that anyone may rent space here to do so, and that the "hosted forum mods" do not have authority outside their paid-for areas.

We have at this time 1 additional Hosted Forum, that being the WMAA forum in the FMA area. As this site depends on the support and $ of its members to continue to operate, I greatly appreciate both of these groups for the financial support. We have over 2000 members, but less than 5% are supporters. Rather than maintain software and deal with a mega learning curve, you can setup your own area here, starting at $99/year. We supply software, space, bandwidth and tech support. You determine what goes there, within a few guidelines (IE must be legal in NYS) For more information, contact me or see the "Hosted Forum" section off the main forum page.

 

[Michael Billings]

I had no idea what a "Hosted Forum" was, outside of the MT one we had to close down due to lack of $$ support.

I think it is extremely fair for Phil to offer space in the Martialist for counterpoint to his article. This seems like a good opportunity for those who disagreed with his posts. I tended to just scratch my head and go ... whoops, as guns are tricky, deadly and scary, both to defend against, and to post about. There is always controversy.

-Michael

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."

About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap. There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.

Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly.

Mr. Elmore, why so defensive? Where did Dr. Chapel say anything about "mystical secrets?" And, you really think there's no law enforcement officer alive that wouldn't want a certain class of private citizens, oh, such as say suspected felons, to know what you term "purely defensive moves?" Huh. That's interesting because that's just the sort of situation that a law enforcement officer might be concerned about. In that scenario, your "purely defensive move" then quickly becomes a struggle for the officer's life.

Further, where did anyone say that the circular movements they practice were "magical" or were imbued with "mystical" properties? You are really reading into something that just wasn't said. I ask you to check YOUR premises. Maybe then you'll discover the source of your knee-jerk hostility.

Howard

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
You can learn as much from what you shouldn't do as from what you should. That's one of the reasons I publish opposing viewpoints in The Martialist when they're offered. I'm a pretty fair guy (though I'll admit to being provocative; it comes with the territory).

Even the outraged folks who've gotten so bent out of shape over my disdain for their response(s) would be given a fair shot if they chose to submit something. That's how I operate.

Smells like some back-peddling and damage control to me.

To be accurate, you didn't exactly say you were showing what you shouldn't do in the photo sequence. Rather, you stated: "That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot." In your post you emphasize the word "nothing," which I took to mean that while you didn't think much of the technique, you thought it was the best option from a set of bad solutions.

At least admit what you stated. Or be big enough to fess up that your initial statement was actually unclear and ambiguous.

Howard

 

[Phil Elmore]

There's no "back peddling," whatever that may be, nor "back pedaling," either.

I believe in discussing things substantively and have nothing but contempt for responses that fall along the lines of, "Well, see, I know this super cool thing, but it's a secret, so take my word for it." This isn't a question of credentials, nor is it particularly important that some of the responses to this thread consist primarily of the whining of those who seem threatened by the fact that some of us actually put time and effort into creating things of value.

To put that another way, you can either talk around or about a topic. I don't believe in talking around it. I ridiculed a post I found ridiculous. That's not being "defensive," though I'll grant you that it's not being terribly polite. Too many people are afraid to characterize absurdity for what it is.

To be accurate, you didn't exactly say you were showing what you shouldn't do in the photo sequence.

Pay attention, kid. My first post to this thread was a link to the article in The Martialist, in which I call the technique "something very stupid." It doesn't get much more "exactly" than that.

 

[Disco]

Mr. Phil, upon review of your gun disarm posting on your site, we are in agreement with the overall rational of the factors and recourses available under the given situations. I would however offer a suggestion on the physical aspects of the disarms shown. If you have not had the opportunity to train, or at the very least observe either Hapkido or Jujitsu disarms, I would strongly urge you to do so. This is meant only to afford you the option to advance your chances for survival, if you should ever find yourself in this situation in real life.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Try not to read too much into a single set of photos.

Once I started my own publication I finally understood the griping of various MA webmasters and even print publication editors, who were forever going on about the ridiculous over-analysis of their photos. People seem to think that a single shot affords them all manner of imagined insight into the doings, goings, learnings, and understandings of the person or people in the shot, when in fact a single photo is just that.

As for Hapkido, I have a great deal of respect for it thanks to the work of people like Alain Burrese, but I am a Wing Chun practitioner (among other things). I have two teachers at present, one of whom has (among other rankings) a black belt in Judo. My Wing Chun instructor spent years in White Crane before discovering Wing Chun. All in all, my "cup runneth over" where instruction is concerned.

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
I believe in discussing things substantively and have nothing but contempt for responses that fall along the lines of, "Well, see, I know this super cool thing, but it's a secret, so take my word for it." This isn't a question of credentials, nor is it particularly important that some of the responses to this thread consist primarily of the whining of those who seem threatened by the fact that some of us actually put time and effort into creating things of value.

To put that another way, you can either talk around or about a topic. I don't believe in talking around it. I ridiculed a post I found ridiculous. That's not being "defensive," though I'll grant you that it's not being terribly polite. Too many people are afraid to characterize absurdity for what it is.

Pay attention, kid. My first post to this thread was a link to the article in The Martialist, in which I call the technique "something very stupid." It doesn't get much more "exactly" than that.

Calm down, Sparky! You're quite excitable, but perhaps you could render some assistance. You see I just took a peek at your article but wasn't quite sure what an "extremely risk torso twist is." However, I would certainly agree that the move is risky. Also, I'd figure a professional writer, such as you self-evidently are, would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***). So, you might want to look over your gun disarm article once more before the grammar snobs take you to task.

Now, you're what's called in the industry: an Internet warrior. And, at this point that's about the best I can say about you. When you so immaturely toss off serious evaluations like "absurd," "ridiculous," and "nothing but contempt," for what would be for a rational person at most slight peccadillos, you make the same mistake that Leftists do when they label everything as "racist," when it clearly is not warranted.

Finally, you'll obviously never admit as much, but you clearly retreat and massage your own errors so that you're rarely wrong. Add a sprinkling of psychologizing and your Internet alter-ego is born.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hell, and I didn't even get ON this thread previously...and if that isn't shocking enough, I pretty much agree with, "Rainman."

There is of course a Klassic Kenpo technique for just this attack, Broken Rod. And as was already mentioned, the tech works a lot better when you DON'T drop your hands, and when you pivot to get the centerline and if possible the whole body away from the redirected gun barrel.

Perhaps more to the point at this point, the point is that kenpo generally teaches (or should be) that if you're sure the guy's gonna shoot, go for it. It's bound to be better than taking the round in the spine. If you're not sure, give the guy your wallet, your keys, your pants, anything but your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor...and even the last two are somewhat disposable in such a situation.

ALL of the gun disarms are to be used, I was taught, only in a true emergency--which, in this context, can best be defined as a situation in which you are within about a half a second of trying to absorb a bullet. Then, why not? But they all involve risk, considerable risk, as do the knife techniques.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Calm down, Sparky! You're quite excitable, but perhaps you could render some assistance. You see I just took a peek at your article but wasn't quite sure what an "extremely risk torso twist is." However, I would certainly agree that the move is risky. Also, I'd figure a professional writer, such as you self-evidently are, would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***). So, you might want to look over your gun disarm article once more before the grammar snobs take you to task.

Is your world normally thrown into confusion by the appearance of a single typo? I'll tell you what, though, Skippy -- you start your own monthly magazine and we'll go issue for issue counting errors. I'll even spot you a couple to get you started. Certainly a gigantic intellect such as you can bang out a few sample issues in no time at all...?

Now, you're what's called in the industry: an Internet warrior.

Actually, I'd be more correctly termed a "pundit." Now, you, as a passive-aggressive child who can only lash out at people while creating nothing of substance himself, might more accurately fit the "internet warrior" profile.

And, at this point that's about the best I can say about you. When you so immaturely toss off serious evaluations like "absurd," "ridiculous,"

A "serious evaluation" that is absurd still deserves to be ridiculed.

...and "nothing but contempt," for what would be for a rational person at most slight peccadillos

That last part doesn't even make structural sense.

...you make the same mistake that Leftists do when they label everything as "racist," when it clearly is not warranted.

Yep, that's me. Old left-wing Phil, they call me.

Finally, you'll obviously never admit as much, but you clearly retreat and massage your own errors so that you're rarely wrong.

Actually, when I'm wrong, I admit it. I seldom retreat from anything; that's one of the reasons I continue to publish The Martialist despite the childish nonsense I get from self-styled critics like you -- people who seem to have so very much to say but so precious little with which to support it.

Add a sprinkling of psychologizing and your Internet alter-ego is born.

For it to be an "alter ego" I'd have to be someone other than me.

A monthly publication like The Martialist requires a great deal of effort and energy. There are times when, faced with the mewling and petulant outrage of children like you, I wonder why I work so hard at it. It is, after all, much easier to complain than to create. Fortunately, almost every time one of these little flare-ups occurs, I start receiving e-mails from people who actually grasp what is going on -- and what the entire point of the self-defense industry happens to be.

When you figure that out, you'll be on your way to making something of yourself.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by howardr
would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***).

Hey, my ears are ringing!

 

[arnisador]

I'm locking this thread. It may be reopened at a later time.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-