Question about grabbing guns in self defense

[Zujitsuka]

Good day everyone.

GOD forbid that I'm faced with a gun weilding attacker. Hopefully I will be alert enough to not let someone get the drop on me or be able to take cover and get out of Dodge.

I have seen live and video taped demos where the defender grabbed a semi auto claiming that if you grab the upper receiver securely, you will prevent the gun from firing because it wasn't able to slide back.

Is this true?

What about grabbing the cylinder of a revolver?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Despairbear]

I am not sure that is right. The firing action come from the fireing pin striking the primer. The slide is not involved in activating the primer. The slide, powered by the recoil chambers another round into the reciver and cocks the hammer back. I am not a firearms expert so please corect me if I am wrong.



Despair Bear

 

[928Porsche]

Grabbing the slide will not stop the gun from firing. It may inhibit it from chambering another round, but I doubt it. When it goes off, the recoil of the gun and your probable reaction of letting go will allow it to cycle.

The only way I know to stop it from firing is to restrict the movement of the hammer. That will only work if the gun has an external hammer.

 

[yilisifu]

If you seize the slide and force it back, the weapon cannot fire. However, the odds are that you will fail in this attempt and get yourself a new navel.

If faced with a semi-auto handgun with an external hammer, you can:
(a) grab the slide and slip a finger between the hammer and firing pin so if the assailant pulls the trigger, it will strike your finger and the weapopn will not discharge. This only works, of course, if the hammer is already cocked back.

(b) In the event the hammer is not cocked back, seize the slide and slip a finger BEHIND the hammer to prevent it from being cocked back.

If the weapon has an internal hammer, both a and b above are useless. In any case, the primary idea is to direct the muzzle away from you and keep it pointed away from you as you execute your defensive techniques.


If the handgun is a revolver, you can:
(a) perform the same defense as (a) above if the hammer is cocked back.

(b) perform #(b) above if the hammer is down.

(c) if the hammer is DOWN, you can seize the cylinder and this will prevent it from turning, thus preventing discharge. This does NOT work if the hammer is already cocked back.

Again, the best idea is to direct the muzzle away from you and keep it that way until you have neutralized the opponent.

 

[redfive]

If you grab a simi auto by the slide, which is where you should grab. Some teach to grab the wrist or gun hand insted. There is a good chance that the gun will go off, but if you grab the gun like your life depends on it, which is the way you should grab it. The slide will not rechamer or cycle properly. this will cause a jam or the spent shell not to eject. You may get powder burned, your hand could get partialy cought in the slide, eject chamber, and the worst is the cut that you will get from the front site.
My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks. Its a real wake up call the first time you try to disarm and the weapon does go off. I have found that just trying to focus on securing the slide is a lot easier then trying to mess with trying to grab or disrupt the hammer. You loose a lot of your leverage the further back on the weapon you go.
If the gun goes off as soon as you touch it to pass it, then the gun will rechamber properly, just train your self not to pull away, and stay with the weapon and try to jam or pin the weapon into the opponent until you get a good grip or buy time to quick draw your own firearm or knife. Always use distractions while grabing the gun, kick, punch, spit, do it all.


Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by redfive
If you grab a simi auto by the slide, which is where you should grab. Some teach to grab the wrist or gun hand insted. There is a good chance that the gun will go off, but if you grab the gun like your life depends on it, which is the way you should grab it. The slide will not rechamer or cycle properly. this will cause a jam or the spent shell not to eject. You may get powder burned, your hand could get partialy cought in the slide, eject chamber, and the worst is the cut that you will get from the front site.
My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks. Its a real wake up call the first time you try to disarm and the weapon does go off. I have found that just trying to focus on securing the slide is a lot easier then trying to mess with trying to grab or disrupt the hammer. You loose a lot of your leverage the further back on the weapon you go.
If the gun goes off as soon as you touch it to pass it, then the gun will rechamber properly, just train your self not to pull away, and stay with the weapon and try to jam or pin the weapon into the opponent until you get a good grip or buy time to quick draw your own firearm or knife. Always use distractions while grabing the gun, kick, punch, spit, do it all.


Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

I have never trained with a live gun so I cant argue with you on this but I have always been under the impression that grabbing the slide would only cause you harm and the recoil would still recharge the weapon?:asian:

Great info..:goop:


Love the screen name!!!!!!!

 

[Wmarden]

Even clothes can cause a misfire when an autoloading pistol is held in the retention position(very close to the body at the side). So a hand could very probably cause a failure to feed the next round.

One thing to consider is that you are working with the recoil spring to prevent it from going back.

I agree with "redirect and try to prevent the second round from feeding."

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, depending upon the individual weapon, the slide may be rather stiff and difficult to slide back even slightly. I prefer to go for the hammer......

 

[Jill666]

Actually, my first (and second) thought here is, why go for a piece of the gun?

I just seems to me that most MA's train to redirect the direction of the muzzle, then disarm. The reasoning being that if you face an armed attacker, are you qualified in that circumstance to correctly identify and inhibit the works & parts of every gun that could possibly be trained on you?

Hey, if you are, and feel confident that between adrenaline and every other factor in a real armed attack, you can deftly use your hands to catch the slide/hammer/cylinder and do just the right thing to disable the gun go for it. :shrug: I honestly think most could not.

Personally I'd try for the frame or slide to point the muzzle somewhere else, then execute my technique. I am not getting fancy, or complicated. KISS. As time goes on and I use more firearms that may change...

There is one technique I have learned that has the MA executing a fancy turn to grab the gun hand (which has been pointed at your temple). Then an open-handed strike to the underside of the tricep, then pivot so your back is to the assailant, with the gun held over your shoulder pointing away. Do you break the arm over your shoulder? No- first you strike the assailants gut with your elbow, then you use the arm break. Then you take the gun.

This is the stupidest thing I ever saw in my life. I'm not doing anything fancy, I'm training gross motor moves only, and once the gun or gun hand is secured I am not letting go with one hand to strike the body before I break the jerks arm.

IF the person gets close enough to put their gun on my temple, I am either handing over my wallet or I am already a bloodstain on the nearest wall, anyway. But if you train a disarm, for crissakes at least train with a technique that might actually work. Sheesh.

What was the question again?


Sorry, guess I just :soapbox:

 

[Jill666]

Oh, yeah, ok. Getting back to the topic I'd go for the slide if possible, but I wouldn't even try for the hammer or anything else except the frame of the gun to point it away.

 

[Elfan]

I personal wouldn't try to grab a specific part of the gun in the hopes that in a split second I had correctly identified the gun, determined where I would have to grab, and then successfully grabbed it. My first priority would be to get the gun pointed in a safe direction ASAP, if its pointed at the attacker and firers, well that his problem.

 

[yilisifu]

Catching the hammer is easier than you might think. If you just GRAB, but do so with your fingers spread, there's a good chance that one of them will catch the hammer. Try it with a partner!

I fully agree that once the muzzle has been re-directed, one should forget about trying to acquire possession of the weapon and should quickly destroy the opponent. Without his help, the gun is just a chunk of metal.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Catching the hammer is easier than you might think. If you just GRAB, but do so with your fingers spread, there's a good chance that one of them will catch the hammer. Try it with a partner!

But, PLEASE try it with a Not Real, Not Loaded Training weapon! Id hate to lose anyone to a training technique, even if you are just people I "talk" with online...

Lets play safe.

 

[redfive]

If your training focuses on trying to block or disrupt the hammer, your realy going to be disapointed when you run across the Glock, even my small 357 revolver doesnt have a hammer. All guns have barrels or slides. if you concentrate on this then it does not matter what kind of gun it is. My intent is not to render the gun inoprable, but rather to get it away from the person trying to shoot me. All disarms start with a redirection of the muzzle, while side stepping , or shifting your body out of the way.
I have a Dan Wesson 44 magnum revolver. If you get your finger cought between the hammer and the frame, you will get your finger smashed to hell and you will have the fireing pin stuck in you. So you can meet your same goals by simply grabing the barrel or slide. There are techniques you can do that will snatch the gun out of the hands before he or she even realizes it.
But as with many small frame automatics and snub noze revolvers, you will have to grab more of the hand then the gun. Then you are doeing more jujitsu style disarms as compared to leverage releases and snatches.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[Klondike93]

If I may, I would suggest the video, Gun Disarms by Vladimir Vasiliev. He's a former Spetznasz (Russian special forces) who teaches Systema and does some good practical gun disarms.





Klondike (aka Chuck)

 

[Seig]

I am not going to engage in the debate, I will however tell you what Stick Dummy and I did when were explaining a very similiar situation to some students. If you force the slide back, even half an inch, it takes the gun out of cycle and it will not fire (semi-auto). What we did was take my semi, unload it and removed the clip and demostrated this. While we were demonstrating explaining we also explained that in 99% of cases, just give them what they want. If you have no choice, get it out of cycle and then break everything attached to the gun. (fingers, thumbs, etc..)

 

[yilisifu]

I should also mention that one should train to move the body out from in front of the muzzle at the same time that one seizes the weapon and tries to move it away from oneself.....

 

[dogma173]

I doubt this is true. Grabbing the semi dosn't keep it from firing. Even if you keep it from sliding, this does not stop the firing action. Same thing with revolvers.

 

[redfive]

Of course it will not stop the gun from firing the first chambered round, but what it is likely to do is knock the gun out of battery, so as that it will either not fully eject the first chambered round, or will not cycle the waiting round.

But who the hell cares. the main goal is to get the hell out of the way of the line of fire and take the gun away. The gun jamming or not cycling is just a side effect. You just have to prepare for the fact that the gun will most likely go off when you touch it. there are ways to limit this by pushing the gun back towards the attacker, as compared to pulling it towards you, which will asure that it will go off.

As for revolvers. If the hammer is back then your right , the gun will fire, if its double action and the hammer is down and you obstruct the cylinder from turning, then there is know way the gun will fire.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[ydma1796]

The moral of this story...... when performing a firearms disarm the weapon WILL discharge at least once. be ready for it and pray your technique gets you out of the line off fire.

Salute :asian:
Kevin

just my 2 cents