Gun Defenses

[WhiteTiger]

I have often wondered about the effect of grabbing at the gun hand of an assailant as the gun goes off. As in Crossing Darts or Uncovering the Flame, controling the weapon in these cases is essential, but can you prepare mentally for the affects of the gun going off as you grab the assailants hand, or the gun itself? Partiularlly with an automatic which has a slide that will be moving back, the re-coil, the ejecting shell, ect. If you interupt the slide action there is a good chance the gun will jam, but what damage might this do to your hand, and will that prevent you from doing the follow-up movemetns?

I have heard of individuals which have experimented with the Kenpo gun defenses using blanks. Can anyone here testify to the effect that these variables might have?

 

[Ceicei]

Could we hope to never have to deal with a gun-wielding assailant? Maybe, but our martial arts training teaches us to prepare ourselves that this possibility may happen.

If your only exposure to a gun is watching a TV show or perhaps hearing a distant gunfire from somewhere, it definitely isn't the same. A person who has never heard a real gun go off near his head, the loudness can be surprising, not to mention feeling the impact of gun recoil.

Best way to become familiar at first is to go shooting with a gun at your local shooting range. Many places will rent guns for shooting at the range.

When at the range, some basic rules/suggestions: 1) Be sure to wear proper ear protection. 2) Never point your gun (regardless if its unloaded) at anything you wouldn't want targeted, not even in "play". 3) Learn to load, reload, and unload. 4) Always keep your finger off the trigger until you've got the sights lined up and ready to fire. 5) go practice often.

The practice of shooting will enable you to become accustomed with guns and how they perform, as well as gain a respect for its power.

Once you understand and respect what guns can do, your practice with using martial arts in gun disarms will be more realistic even if the gun is a rubber one.

Getting a hand caught in the slide while doing a disarm is possible, but that wouldn't be a primary concern. Neither is being beaned by an empty shell ejection. Yes, your hand would hurt (primarily the fingers, most likely), but assuming you haven't been shot, you would still be able continue with followup movements even after a hand injury.

You hopefully would be more aware of your surroundings when dealing with a gun, whether its yours or the assailant's.

It isn't a game.

- Ceicei

 

[Jmh7331]

My best friend and former training partner (before I moved) is a C.O. in NYS. He is also on the Albany C.E.R.T. team. They train in a lot of different things, including MA. Their MA instructor is a Kenpoist. They do all of the gun attacks with blanks and they work! My friend said even when they pull back the hammer on a revolver and make it single-action, they are still able to clear the gun before it goes off. I guess if you are unused to gunfire the noise might rattle you, but if you can stick to your technique they'll work. I would still just hand over my wallet though!

 

[Michael Billings]

I have done them with a real gun also, a revolver in which I removed the firing pin. I also could make them work, most of the time ... note, I said "most" of the time (and hopefully we will not get guns pointed at us on a regular basis.)

The thing I noticed, since I had no BANG, just a very definitive "CLICK" as the hammer dropped, was that it really, really, really hurts to strike a metal gun with your hand, no matter what part you use. If you slow it down, you can actually see the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes "CLICK". That is even more scary. So we do it with a wooden gun for practice, then move up to the real handgun for experience ... that hopefully none of my student's will have to use.

-Michael

 

[Blindside]

I brought in my Ruger P90 last year for gun techs, during the tech someone dropped the gun on his big toe, and the P90 isn't a light gun. There was some violation of the "no swearing" studio rule from both me and the guy who dropped the gun.

Fortunately the gun was fine.

I moved to airsoft guns this year. Still no bang, but at least it shoots a projectile.

Lamont

 

[Disco]

You made reference to the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes click. What type of disarm is being attempted? Just trying to understand the positioning. Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
<snip>[The thing I noticed, since I had no BANG, just a very definitive "CLICK" as the hammer dropped, was that it really, really, really hurts to strike a metal gun with your hand, no matter what part you use. If you slow it down, you can actually see the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes "CLICK". That is even more scary. So we do it with a wooden gun for practice, then move up to the real handgun for experience ... that hopefully none of my student's will have to use.
-Michael [/B]

I'm sorry but I have to call that being irresponsible. Regardless that the firing pin is removed and there are no bullets in the chamber or clip or cylinder... it's not a good idea to point a REAL gun at anyone period! It's what wooden, rubber, plastic and other FAKE guns are for during MA training.

(hope that isn't being taken the wrong way) :asian:

 

[Disco]

We train with a real gun that has been decommissioned. The firing pin removed and the barrel filled. The rational for a real gun is two fold. 1) the phycological aspect. 2) The weight and mechanics.

 

[Michael Billings]

I use all the Kenpo gun techniques that we have, and additional ones from various law enforcement cert classes I have attended. Even when redirecting the barrel, it hurts. If attacking the wrist on the inside, there is a tendency for the wrist to bend, keeping, or actually directing the barrel in your direction ... ergo, attack the weapon. This is true in all the gun defense scenarios I have been in regardless of where.

OWWWWW....

-Michael

 

[Michael Billings]

I am probably one of the MOST responsible people you would ever meet. Your opinion is noted, and in most circumstances I agree with you. However, when working with all black belts, or in an advanced training with law enforcement, plastic, wood, etc, just do not really give you the correct reaction that a weapon does.

I do not recommend this, I do not advocate anyone else trying it. However, the only irresponsible act I am guilty of, is perhaps posting it here without that disclaimer.

-Michael

 

[SenseiBear]

If you are willing to spend a little money, I would recommend you purchase a blank firing stage replica. These are not firearms, as they have plugged barrels and cannot fire a live round.

However, they fire 8mm blanks, which are not noticably quieter than a 9mm round, the slides work and they eject hot brass so you can be bitten by and jam the weapon - nothing is closer to the real thing and it is still safe (except to your ears, I don't recommend using it w/o protection often).

You can buy all types, Beretta 92F, Beretta 85, Desert Eagle, Colt 45, Walther PPK, Walther P-38, 315 Automatic, as well as a range of blank firing revolvers.

You can purchase such things online at: http://www.westernstageprops.com/

SB

 

[Rob Broad]

I would rather hand a burn, or ripped flesh on my hand or even having my hand shot, than taking a shot in critical mass. That is just my ay of looking at it. I have looked down the barrel of a weapon pointed at me, and it has a psychological affect on you that unless you have faced it in before you have no idea how you will react.

I have used a starter pistol in that past and even though I was successful many times it was the unsuccessful atempts that makes me never want to face a live weapon again.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MACaver
I'm sorry but I have to call that being irresponsible. Regardless that the firing pin is removed and there are no bullets in the chamber or clip or cylinder... it's not a good idea to point a REAL gun at anyone period! It's what wooden, rubber, plastic and other FAKE guns are for during MA training.

(hope that isn't being taken the wrong way) :asian:

We use real guns (empty) once the techniques are learned well. That includes rifles and shotguns. Nothing prepares you for the "feel" of the real thing like, well, the real thing. Everyone is familiar with weapons and we have 3 rangemasters (not including myself). No big deal when you know what you're doing.

 

[Shiatsu]

If you don't use the real thing it is kind of like practicing football with drill team dancers.:asian:

 

[Phil Elmore]

http://www.themartialist.com/1203/gundisarm.htm

 

[MA-Caver]

Those techniques are very good alibet one of them being stupid as you admitted (attempting to spin around with the weapon pointed at your back) unless you are quick enough to surprise the attacker before he can respond to your "counter-move". That your attacker isn't prepared for it.
I've said this before, the effectiveness of any of those (and other) techniques are only as effective as the person utilizing them. If they're capable and willing to do them.
A gun is one of the most frightening objects to be confronted with. I've had them pointed mere inches from my face and from behind my head and at me from a distance. Truly I am amazed and thankful that I'm still here to talk about it. By all rights and purposes I shouldn't be here but I am... because of the skills and training I've learned and recieved over the years. Also because I'm willing to use them even at great risk to my own person.
The mind set. It doesn't have to be there all the time. But it's important to know when to have it.
It avails nothing to have skills and not able to use them when the time comes.
Boy scout mottos hold true here. Be prepared!

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MACaver
Those techniques are very good alibet one of them being stupid as you admitted (attempting to spin around with the weapon pointed at your back) unless you are quick enough to surprise the attacker before he can respond to your "counter-move".

We have proven consistently that when a handgun is placed in the back, a spinning move is quite succesful. We have practiced as realistically as humanly possible without live ammo utilizing real weapons, and including with "paintball guns."

What you consider as "stupid" is far from it with an understanding of the mechanics necessary, and the psycology involved in the technique. My students include; U.S. Marshal's, D.E.A., F.B.I., L.A.P.D. L.A.S.O, U.S.M.C., etc. who would disagree vehemently as I do with your assessment.
In my experience, this is simply wrong.

I do not make my comments to disrespect you, however the reality of street confrontations are serious and such comments may preclude others from examining such options that may ultimately save their lives.

"Street knowledge" is not easily obtained, and very few are actually experts in the reality of street confrontations and it cannot be learned in most schools, despite whatever "martial arts" training some "instructors" may have. I would take another look. Afterall, when a gun is in your back, the only other alternative is to "give up," and that is not acceptable to my students, and hopefully not to others as well.

 

[Phil Elmore]

That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil

That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot.

From your posted demo, I'd have to say, I agree with you. I wish I could help you but it is our policy to not discuss gun disarms taught to law enforcement with anyone we do not know personally, and specifically not on the internet. However, I would give this technique a bit more thought. Like I said, we are quite successful. In fact, this particular gun disarm is more succesful than almost any other technique.

 

[Phil Elmore]

From your posted demo, I'd have to say, I agree with you. I wish I could help you but it is our policy to not discuss gun disarms taught to law enforcement with anyone we do not know personally, and specifically not on the internet. However, I would give this technique a bit more thought. Like I said, we are quite successful. In fact, this particular gun disarm is more succesful than almost any other technique.

That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."

About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap. There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.

Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly.