Ground fighting choices -- Judo or BJJ?

[Formosa Neijia]

I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.

I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.

Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?

I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons.

First, as you mentioned, some schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.

Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that.

Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.

Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do.

It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.

 

[Abbax8]

Since you seem to have made your choice I wanted to point out that while Judo will teach you great throws, sweeps and ground techniques you need to remember that it is usually taught as a sport and they majorly ignore anything below the waist. I made it to my brown belt in Judo and played in tournaments (usualy a requirement to advance) and when I was using just judo techniques I would have a hard time competing or beating a black belt but when I reverted to wrestling style (freestyle, Collegiate style, and Greco) against Judo black belts I could compete and even beat some do to the use of leg techniques on the matt and on my feet. So dont create a blind spot for yourself when you end up on the ground or even on your feet remember your sprawls and double legs and single legs and high crotch techniques. Otherwise your gonna love the throws and sweeps, when you bounce someone on cement or even hard ground they usually dont get up. Judo is a great equilizer for taking on larger opponents as well. Unlike what some might think strength is a plus but technique will overcome a stronger opponent. Have fun!!!

Actually judo has several leg picks, Marote-Gari, Kibisu-Gake, even Te-Guruma among others.

Peace

Dennis

 

[zDom]

Well said, Formosa Neijia. :asian:

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Japanese JiuJitsu (Um, if you are talking about Japanese JJ, you should spell it JuJutsu, because "jiujitsu" is a brazilian rendition) is amazing if you are watching some guy practice on compliant partners.

--

And, incidentally, Karo DOESN'T stick strictly to his Judo.

JJJ is not so amazing when you watch some guy trying to pull his moves off against a combat athlete.

The reason so many JJJ moves aren't present in BJJ is because they DON'T WORK.

You can keep doing them if you like - I'll do the things that work.

Then you have seen a weak version of Japanese based Jujutsu.
We have plenty from BJJ come to our Dojo, and on the ground they are tough,if yo0u play MMA rules they are tough, but out comes a plastic knife and they become almost clueless. Double leg takedowns dont go so well on a man with a knife or a bludgeon.

After being rubberburned about the throat and limbs and jabbed in the abdomin, one of 2 things happens. A. We never see them again. B. They sign up with us.

BJJ is about the best system, for fighting from your back, and I do like it and crosstrain with those who are serious about it, but it's BS to say BJJ has all the moves of JJJ but they dont work. That's Bull, with anywhere from 6 months to 3 years (depends on what Gracie wrote the book your reading.) under Maeda, there was not time to learn a full JJJ curriculem.

I give the Gracies credit for taken the few throws and good amount of groundfighting the were trained in and making what they had beter for them and their cultural enviroment. They have brought a good contribution to MA, or the general public MA, but they are not the grand ultimate and neither is any martial art.

 

[Ybot]

I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons.

First, as you mentioned, some schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.

Talking UFC has never effected the training at our school. It is a bunch of guys who happen to enjoy a sport discussing it, no different than baseball, soccer, or basketball. The vast majority of the guys I train with have no aspirations of becoming pro-fighters.

Also, from what I've seen, because of the high impact nature of Judo, injury rates are far higher in Judo than in BJJ.

Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that.

Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.

More realistic??? In what way? In turtling up and waiting for the stand-up?

It's true that most of the advanced grappling in BJJ will never be necessary for the street. We train it, for the love of it. But you are far better off if you do end up on the bottom using guard than turtling up or pancaking, which becomes the default of most Judoka. This habit is the consequence of pins, and it is this bad habit that is my only criticism of pinning. As in your example, being able to pin someone is a great skill.

Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do.

It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.

I agree that throwing is great for self defense and is excellent for blending into other martial arts. Judo is a great art, but certainly has it's own limitations as does BJJ.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Talking UFC has never effected the training at our school. It is a bunch of guys who happen to enjoy a sport discussing it, no different than baseball, soccer, or basketball. The vast majority of the guys I train with have no aspirations of becoming pro-fighters.

From what I saw, it affected the mindset in some schools. They were very competitive, if not in MMA then in BJJ. Competition is good but shouldn't be overdone IMO.

More realistic??? In what way? In turtling up and waiting for the stand-up?

Yeah, turtling up is not the way to go. I think keeping the ground game to 30 seconds as in judo is more realistic training. I want to go for a submission or pin fairly quick. That's what I found useful in my self-defense encounters.

It's true that most of the advanced grappling in BJJ will never be necessary for the street. We train it, for the love of it. But you are far better off if you do end up on the bottom using guard than turtling up or pancaking, which becomes the default of most Judoka. This habit is the consequence of pins, and it is this bad habit that is my only criticism of pinning. As in your example, being able to pin someone is a great skill.

Yeah, again the turtling up is something to be avoided IMO. It's just using the rules to your advantage but will get you messed up in self-defense. I guess we all have to work with the weaknesses in our arts to make them more realistic sometimes. Funny how competitions do that to arts, eh?

 

[allenjp]

Then you have seen a weak version of Japanese based Jujutsu.
We have plenty from BJJ come to our Dojo, and on the ground they are tough,if yo0u play MMA rules they are tough, but out comes a plastic knife and they become almost clueless. Double leg takedowns dont go so well on a man with a knife or a bludgeon.

After being rubberburned about the throat and limbs and jabbed in the abdomin, one of 2 things happens. A. We never see them again. B. They sign up with us.

BJJ is about the best system, for fighting from your back, and I do like it and crosstrain with those who are serious about it, but it's BS to say BJJ has all the moves of JJJ but they dont work. That's Bull, with anywhere from 6 months to 3 years (depends on what Gracie wrote the book your reading.) under Maeda, there was not time to learn a full JJJ curriculem.

I give the Gracies credit for taken the few throws and good amount of groundfighting the were trained in and making what they had beter for them and their cultural enviroment. They have brought a good contribution to MA, or the general public MA, but they are not the grand ultimate and neither is any martial art.

This is a point that as a practitioner of BJJ I have tried to drive home since the beginning. BJJ is an incredible fighting system under a certain set of circumstances. Namely, one on one, unarmed, and preferably, though not necessarily, on a favorable surface. This is what makes it great for sparring or sport fighting. Unfortunately many real SD situations are nothing close to those circumstances, and getting on the ground, especially on your back in a SD situation is a BAD idea.

BUT...the reason why I train BJJ (and I train it for SD) is because it is VERY, VERY difficult to avoid getting taken down by someone who knows how, and is determined. And if you end up on the ground despite your best efforts to stay standing, you had BETTER know what you are doing down there.

As to which is better, I don't think either one is. The OP was choices for GROUND fighting, and IMHO BJJ is better for that because they spend most of there time there. It's their specialty. But Judo has a lot of practical use for the clinch phase of a fight, and if those throws can be painful on a mat, they can be devastating on concrete. They can end a fight right there.

In my BJJ class we have two Judokas, a blackbelt and a brownbelt. If you ask me, the two styles compliment each other very well. If you train both, you have the advantage of being a specialist in the clinch, AND on the ground. Good choice if you ask me...

However, if you are really training for SD at some point you are going to have to deal with weapons training, and neither one of these do that very well IMHO.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

This is a point that as a practitioner of BJJ I have tried to drive home since the beginning. BJJ is an incredible fighting system under a certain set of circumstances. Namely, one on one, unarmed, and preferably, though not necessarily, on a favorable surface. This is what makes it great for sparring or sport fighting. Unfortunately many real SD situations are nothing close to those circumstances, and getting on the ground, especially on your back in a SD situation is a BAD idea.

BUT...the reason why I train BJJ (and I train it for SD) is because it is VERY, VERY difficult to avoid getting taken down by someone who knows how, and is determined. And if you end up on the ground despite your best efforts to stay standing, you had BETTER know what you are doing down there.

As to which is better, I don't think either one is. The OP was choices for GROUND fighting, and IMHO BJJ is better for that because they spend most of there time there. It's their specialty. But Judo has a lot of practical use for the clinch phase of a fight, and if those throws can be painful on a mat, they can be devastating on concrete. They can end a fight right there.

In my BJJ class we have two Judokas, a blackbelt and a brownbelt. If you ask me, the two styles compliment each other very well. If you train both, you have the advantage of being a specialist in the clinch, AND on the ground. Good choice if you ask me...

However, if you are really training for SD at some point you are going to have to deal with weapons training, and neither one of these do that very well IMHO.

You have a very practicle and honest outlook. Your the kind of BJJ practitioner I love to train with, the kind where there is mutual learning, growth and respect.

Someday I will have my own MA/Fitness center and I want our style of Jujutsu offered as well as BJJ and Judo along with MMA and FMA and I will encourage crosstraining.

I like how our style of Jujutsu is a very well rounded Jujutsu system. Throws,takedowns, unbalancing, jointlocks/destructions, chokes, grappling, strikes against aremd and unarmed, 1 on 1 and "Oh no they brought the whole tribe!" situations are trained.
I do ralize though that you will gravitate towards certian elements.
Some of our guys are real good at 2-3 elements, decent at 1-3 and suck at a few, you do gravitate towards different things.
I look to other JJ styles for specialization crosstraining.
I have learned some great stuff from BJJ that helps my ground game (I'm a rubberguard/sweep fiend), I have got better at catching moving limbs and apllying joint locks from crosstraining with a Small Circle Instructor.
I have gained better footwork, evasion and entry sklls from FMA/IMA.
There is no one true way, lots of good ways though.

SHUGYO!
Dylan

 

[allenjp]

You have a very practicle and honest outlook. Your the kind of BJJ practitioner I love to train with, the kind where there is mutual learning, growth and respect.

Someday I will have my own MA/Fitness center and I want our style of Jujutsu offered as well as BJJ and Judo along with MMA and FMA and I will encourage crosstraining.

I like how our style of Jujutsu is a very well rounded Jujutsu system. Throws,takedowns, unbalancing, jointlocks/destructions, chokes, grappling, strikes against aremd and unarmed, 1 on 1 and "Oh no they brought the whole tribe!" situations are trained.
I do ralize though that you will gravitate towards certian elements.
Some of our guys are real good at 2-3 elements, decent at 1-3 and suck at a few, you do gravitate towards different things.
I look to other JJ styles for specialization crosstraining.
I have learned some great stuff from BJJ that helps my ground game (I'm a rubberguard/sweep fiend), I have got better at catching moving limbs and apllying joint locks from crosstraining with a Small Circle Instructor.
I have gained better footwork, evasion and entry sklls from FMA/IMA.
There is no one true way, lots of good ways though.

SHUGYO!
Dylan

Thank you for the compliment, It's just that I find too many people get sport fighting and self defense confused. They are NOT the same thing as I am sure you well know.

I have a lot of respect for Jujutsu practitioners. I want to learn some in the future. We have a great dojo here in San Diego that combines Japanese Kenjutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, and modern self defense, along with SYSTEMA. seems like a great school and comes highly reccomended. I am kind of debating between joining this school or a Bujinkan Dojo as soon as I have the time...but unfortunately just groundwork for now.

 

[allenjp]

I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons.

First, as you mentioned, some schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.

Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that.

Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.

Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do.

It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.

Of course, a BJJ practitioner can pin someone too. Just because we always train with finishing techniques doesn't mean we have to use them...

 

[Ybot]

From what I saw, it affected the mindset in some schools. They were very competitive, if not in MMA then in BJJ. Competition is good but shouldn't be overdone IMO.

I really don't believe it has anything to do with being a MMA fan. Not saying I doubt you on the competitiveness, though. I have found that kind of attitude too at a few of the schools I have trained at or visited, but I think it is more because we spend a good deal of time doing "live" competitive sparing can lead to a sort of "top dog" mentality. Also, this kind of training attracts a more competitive "type" (namely young adult males).

I will say that like any martial arts school, a BJJ academy is often the reflection of the personality, or personalities that own and operate it. With that in mind, I feel really lucky to train at the school I am at, and invite anyone in, even if you were turned off by the "machismo" of other BJJ schools.

Yeah, turtling up is not the way to go. I think keeping the ground game to 30 seconds as in judo is more realistic training. I want to go for a submission or pin fairly quick. That's what I found useful in my self-defense encounters.

Again, along with the positives, 30 second rule has negitives as well. You are only encouraged to defend for 30 seconds, and not really to escape.

Yeah, again the turtling up is something to be avoided IMO. It's just using the rules to your advantage but will get you messed up in self-defense. I guess we all have to work with the weaknesses in our arts to make them more realistic sometimes. Funny how competitions do that to arts, eh?

Yeah, and it's also funny how without competition some arts can become a bit delusional.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Thank you for the compliment, It's just that I find too many people get sport fighting and self defense confused. They are NOT the same thing as I am sure you well know.

I have a lot of respect for Jujutsu practitioners. I want to learn some in the future. We have a great dojo here in San Diego that combines Japanese Kenjutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, and modern self defense, along with SYSTEMA. seems like a great school and comes highly reccomended. I am kind of debating between joining this school or a Bujinkan Dojo as soon as I have the time...but unfortunately just groundwork for now.

I would advise the former and stay clear of the latter. Most Kenjutsu and AIki Jujutsu systems have clear histories and lineages, the Ninja stuff is largly reconstructed and dubious. I have trained with some, nice people but living in dream land and none were very good at fighting.

You find AikiJujutsu and modern combatives fit nice with your BJJ, lots of similar orgins and similar movement.

SYSTEMA has me curious. It gets put down but I saw some impressive stuff from the Systema class in NYC I watched.

 

[allenjp]

I would advise the former and stay clear of the latter. Most Kenjutsu and AIki Jujutsu systems have clear histories and lineages, the Ninja stuff is largly reconstructed and dubious. I have trained with some, nice people but living in dream land and none were very good at fighting.

You find AikiJujutsu and modern combatives fit nice with your BJJ, lots of similar orgins and similar movement.

SYSTEMA has me curious. It gets put down but I saw some impressive stuff from the Systema class in NYC I watched.

Thanks for the advice...

as you probably know, only three of the nine systems covered in the Bujinkan are considered "ninja", the other six are samurai systems, and are probably very close to most Jujutsu I would think, I could be wrong. But I had a well respected Bujinkan instructor tell me that this other dojo's instructor was better than any Buj instructor in this area.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, the distance between me and the dojo will probably be the deciding factor anyway...

 

[bootcampbj]

Closeness to the school and quality of the school will of course always matter a lot.


I train BJJ primarily at the moment with a little Judo/aikido cross training.

If you have both close and available and cost isn´t an issue, try both out and lean more towards the one you enjoy more.


- BJ

 

[Zendokan]

I read this thread completely and it's becoming again a Judoka against Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka thread.
I trained/training in both and to answer the OP his question:

The best groundgame is BJJ.
The best standup grappling is Judo

Both systems use an alive training against an resisting person, only by the rulesets there has become an difference.
Be aware of something very important --> both are fighting sports and no self-defence systems so you won't learn anything against a knife/baseballbat attack but most fights don't include knifes/baseballbats or guns. It's likely that your attacker will be some (drunken) idiot that will fight you barehanded. And in that case these two fighting sports are MORE than enough to get the job done.

You can add a striking sport art that uses the same training principles of resisting partner, full-contact and aliveness.
I would than recommend Kyokushin Karate and/or Muay Thai.

Greetz,

Zendokan

 

[Abbax8]

I read this thread completely and it's becoming again a Judoka against Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka thread.
I trained/training in both and to answer the OP his question:

The best groundgame is BJJ.
The best standup grappling is Judo

Both systems use an alive training against an resisting person, only by the rulesets there has become an difference.
Be aware of something very important --> both are fighting sports and no self-defence systems so you won't learn anything against a knife/baseballbat attack but most fights don't include knifes/baseballbats or guns. It's likely that your attacker will be some (drunken) idiot that will fight you barehanded. And in that case these two fighting sports are MORE than enough to get the job done.

You can add a striking sport art that uses the same training principles of resisting partner, full-contact and aliveness.
I would than recommend Kyokushin Karate and/or Muay Thai.

Greetz,

Zendokan

Zendokan,

With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong. In fact the Go-Shin-Jutsu kata does have defense against knife attack, stick attack, etc. In addition, it is up to the instructor to show the self defense aspects of the various waza, if they choose to do so, as I do in my class.

Peace

Dennis

 

[Zendokan]

Zendokan,

With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong. In fact the Go-Shin-Jutsu kata does have defense against knife attack, stick attack, etc. In addition, it is up to the instructor to show the self defense aspects of the various waza, if they choose to do so, as I do in my class.

Peace

Dennis

Dennis, I understand your point of view, but I was comparing Judo and BJJ's self-Defence to JJJ, which nowadays is still more designed for self-defence than sport.
You also said that there are in Go-Shin-Jutsu kata knife-defence techniques, but how many train these techniques against a not complying attacker ?
And the point of my text was that Judo and BJJ are additional arts, not competatives.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong.

I can't talk about other schools, but the mine has shown all sorts of strikes hidden in the throws that would be good for self-defense. In fact, the strikes are sometimes used as kuzushi. I'm being told that these hidden strikes get used a lot in the competitions held here in Taiwan.

For example, I was taught how to punch the stomach when grabbing the lapel low. I was taught to off-balance for osoto gari by grabbing the collar high and punching/driving my fist into the neck.

There are numerous ways to make the throws more useful for self-defense. It isn't hard to do.

 

[D Dempsey]

That's a pretty good description of what would be classed as "dirty judo". I think Jimmy Pedro did a video on it.:ultracool

 

[Makalakumu]

I can't talk about other schools, but the mine has shown all sorts of strikes hidden in the throws that would be good for self-defense. In fact, the strikes are sometimes used as kuzushi. I'm being told that these hidden strikes get used a lot in the competitions held here in Taiwan.

For example, I was taught how to punch the stomach when grabbing the lapel low. I was taught to off-balance for osoto gari by grabbing the collar high and punching/driving my fist into the neck.

There are numerous ways to make the throws more useful for self-defense. It isn't hard to do.

This is a pretty good description of Karate. Strike to grab, grab to strike.