Ground fighting choices -- Judo or BJJ?

[vankuen]

I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.

I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.

Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?

 

[arnisador]

Judo and BJJ are very similar in terms of techniques--BJJ comes from Judo, not jujutsu--but the rules of BJJ encourage a ground game whereas the rules of Judo encourage a standing game. So, your description is probably right: Judo works the throws more, while BJJ works the ground grappling more. BJJ also adds in some wrestling-style takedowns, but all this takes away from how often you're standing and grappling.

For self-defense, both are good but BJJ probably adds a more needed component, in my opinion.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Just remember, BJJ stands for one of two things: Brazialian Ju Jitsu, or Basicly Just Judo. The reason is that the major differnce is the rules.
Arni is right (sorta). BJJ adds a differnit component to your Wing Chun (BJJ does focus on the ground, which would be very differnit then what you are used to). However, I would take Judo if I were you.
Judo is more practicle in a fight. Since BJJ focuses on the ground, you would be in a BAD place if you were in a fight with it. However, there are stories of Judo fighters who were so strong, they seriously injured there opponents in matches, just from a throw! If you don't believe me, wiki Masahiko Kimura.

 

[Flying Crane]

However, there are stories of Judo fighters who were so strong, they seriously injured there opponents in matches, just from a throw! If you don't believe me, wiki Masahiko Kimura.

You don't have to be strong to do this. If you catch a good throw on someone and slam them on the concrete, there's a good chance they aren't getting back up. If they land on their head or neck, they may never get up again.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but it's my understanding that judo starts on the feet and likes to work throws. Once on the ground, they are also very capable, as this is the next step once someone is thrown down.

BJJ likes to go to the ground quickly and fight from there, and doesn't work the throws the way judo does. It's just a different approach and philosophy on how and when to get to the ground.

Personally, I suspect they both offer very similar ground skills. It's how they get to the ground that I think is perhaps the biggest difference.

And yes, as Arnisador stated, BJJ has roots in Kodokan Judo. It was a student of Judo's founder, Jigoro Kano, who ended up in Brazil and taught a very aggressive style of judo, which was adapted and became BJJ.

 

[CuongNhuka]

You don't have to be strong to do this. If you catch a good throw on someone and slam them on the concrete, there's a good chance they aren't getting back up. If they land on their head or neck, they may never get up again.

Yah, but I mean Kimura would throw experts in Judo onto matts designed to absorb that kind of force, and he would still break there bones. Concussions, broken ribs, brocken arms, and so on were common. If he were a BJJ fighter, this probably wouldn't have happened.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yah, but I mean Kimura would throw experts in Judo onto matts designed to absorb that kind of force, and he would still break there bones. Concussions, broken ribs, brocken arms, and so on were common. If he were a BJJ fighter, this probably wouldn't have happened.

yeah, but if self defense is the goal, it's unlikely you will need to fight off a mugger who is a highly trained judo or BJJ guy.

 

[vankuen]

Good point. I also think that it would be a good style to bridge the standup fight to the ground fight. From what I've seen of Judo clips, it seems they are just as capable on the ground, perhaps not with leg locks and such...but still veeeery good.

 

[Abbax8]

What schools are near you? Go check them out, watch a couple of classes and decide which appeals to you more. I teach judo and we do about 60% groundwork and 40% throwing most nights, I find groundwork easier on my joints. Other schools might reverse this or emphasize throwing more. Some BJJ schools do more throws than others, it depends on the instructor and what the school emphasizes.

Peace

Dennis

 

[CuongNhuka]

yeah, but if self defense is the goal, it's unlikely you will need to fight off a mugger who is a highly trained judo or BJJ guy.

They were hurt because they were thrown so hard/fast that they couldn't land properly. Do the same kind of throw to someone who doesn't know how to land properly in the first place, and they will probably die.

 

[Flying Crane]

They were hurt because they were thrown so hard/fast that they couldn't land properly. Do the same kind of throw to someone who doesn't know how to land properly in the first place, and they will probably die.

That's exactly my point. You don't need to be as good as he was, to throw someone on the street hard enough to kill him, especially if the bad guy isn't trained in falling. All you need is a well-executed throw, which a reasonable amount of judo training can enable you to do. You don't need to be a truly superior judoka to do this. And a concrete landing pad helps augment the effects.

Don't underestimate the effect of a good throw, even if done by a mediocre judoka.

 

[CuongNhuka]

That's exactly my point. You don't need to be as good as he was, to throw someone on the street hard enough to kill him, especially if the bad guy isn't trained in falling. All you need is a well-executed throw, which a reasonable amount of judo training can enable you to do. You don't need to be a truly superior judoka to do this. And a concrete landing pad helps augment the effects.

Don't underestimate the effect of a good throw, even if done by a mediocre judoka.

True, but a BJJ guy probably couldn't do the same is my point. Kimura was able to do this because the rules of Judo made it so he focused on the throwing aspect. If he was a BJJ fighter, he probably wouldn't have bothered to develop that kind of force, but rather, beating his opponents on the ground.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Judo plays by more limiting rules. You get to break things with BJJ.
Sean

 

[vankuen]

I've set an appointment with a place called universal judo...

website: www.universaljudo.com

I'll be heading out there on Monday. The head coach is supposedly an world olympic coach and got coach of the year recently. So it would seem that this could be a good school The pricing isn't as inflated as BJJ either.

The assistant coach told me that they will practice throws, pins, chokes, submissions/joint locks. She said the only thing excluded would be leg and ankle locks.

I've already tried out a local BJJ place...they pretty much did things the same way as the place I trained at for a while in Florida 7 years ago. The local place's website is here: http://marrajj.homestead.com

So after I take this judo class, I'll be able to assess the teaching abilities of both places, the training atmosphere, and so forth.

 

[vankuen]

Well...I finally got to partake in the Judo experience in addition to the BJJ experience from a couple weeks ago...here is my assessment:

BJJ pro's:

• School's got a good reputation for being legitimate with an accredited black belt instructor.

• All the guys there seemed nice and the senior students were helpful.

• Great beginning workout and lot's of rolling which was good because it "shocked" me back into grappling mode.

BJJ con's:

• $$$ Expensive $$$. I think is due in part to the popularity given to it by the UFC. It's all hyped up right now and thus the demand is higher which equates to higher price.

• The atmosphere was very...how do you say...macho? Everyone there seemed to be up on the UFC bandwagon and the training was all about that.

• I got pretty much no instruction either. The "technique" learned that day was "get in side mount and don't let the other guy out of it". During rolling I got zero instruction from the instructor outside of when I couldn't get out of a move and he finally decided to give me a tip on how to get out of it. The senior students (by time) helped me from a technical standpoint moreso than the instructor(s).

• Peformance wise I did alright, considering I hadn't rolled in years. Managed to move through a couple positions and maintain my own. Got no sub's that day though because I gassed out severly.

Judo pro's:

• World class coach, with many champion blackbelts under him. There's a variety of belt ranks and body types, and everyone there is very helpful during rolling/randori.

• Price was more reasonable...by about half of what the BJJ place was asking for.

• The atmosphere seemed to be more "fun" while at the same time people were working out very intensely. The teaching style was more detail oriented and we got to practice the techniques on a more docile uke before trying to apply it during newaza (the training that day was all newaza).

• I did much better performance wise this time around. I trained harder in between tryouts to make sure I didn't gas out again so soon. This time around I didn't gas out at all--and was able to apply my previously trained BJJ and newly learned Judo positions. Was able to gain dominant position a couple times on a brown belt, and was able to get and maintain dominant position and a number of subs on a green belt--pretty much cleaned up on that second guy.

Judo con's:

• The beginning workout isn't as intense. This is both good and bad though--saves energy for practice but doesn't get you into as good of shape. Luckily I train outside of class for cardio and strength.

• I wonder about the skill level of the students given my better performance that day. While I always enjoy being able to perform well and would like to think it was me simply getting back into the game, I still have to wonder if it was me being better or him being worse. Just don't know which to put more stock into...

Overall--I really like having gotten back into the ground game after doing standup for so long. I was in a good mood after the BJJ class, but a great mood at the end of the Judo class, and that is mostly what I used as a determinant--how it felt when everything was all said and done that day. That said...I am now officially a Judoka!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Congratulations on your choice. My experience training in BJJ and also having Judo guy's (some national champion level) roll through was simply that the Judo guy's throws were great and I do mean really, really good! However their ground game was just not as strong. I remember one Judo Champion taking down almost anyone he wanted at will but once on the ground all of the blue belts and up just dominated him as he had dominated us in the throwing department.

 

[vankuen]

I've heard that about JJ groundwork vs Judo groundwork and so I wondered about that myself. I hear that most BJJ blue's are about the same as Judo black's. Your story lines up with the outcome that night as well...perhaps my time taking BJJ years ago allowed me to do well that night in Judo? It would also explain possibly why I didn't do so well at the BJJ school I recently visited (if it wasn't just my gassing out).

I've always felt it is up to the individual to make good on his techniques--given that the groundwork is pretty much the same stuff. I wonder if it could also be that some Judo's schools practice nagawaza (throwing) more than newaza (grappling)?

This club I've joined does half and half every night. First part of class is nagewaza and the second half is newaza. If I keep doing better than my peers on the ground without significant instruction, I may end up switching out later to JJ...but we'll see. Not like I can't practice more groundwork with some of the other students from my BJJ master text! BWAHAHAHAHA!

Actually...I don't have that book yet, but I was thinking about getting it to help fill gaps that I saw in the judo groundwork that I might find down the line. I've already found that I don't like the fact that they focus on the olympics so much...as opposed to self enlightenment / self defense. But the techniques are good and the players there are there to win...so it's good training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I've heard that about JJ groundwork vs Judo groundwork and so I wondered about that myself. I hear that most BJJ blue's are about the same as Judo black's. Your story lines up with the outcome that night as well...perhaps my time taking BJJ years ago allowed me to do well that night in Judo? It would also explain possibly why I didn't do so well at the BJJ school I recently visited (if it wasn't just my gassing out).

I've always felt it is up to the individual to make good on his techniques--given that the groundwork is pretty much the same stuff. I wonder if it could also be that some Judo's schools practice nagawaza (throwing) more than newaza (grappling)?

This club I've joined does half and half every night. First part of class is nagewaza and the second half is newaza. If I keep doing better than my peers on the ground without significant instruction, I may end up switching out later to JJ...but we'll see. Not like I can't practice more groundwork with some of the other students from my BJJ master text! BWAHAHAHAHA!

Actually...I don't have that book yet, but I was thinking about getting it to help fill gaps that I saw in the judo groundwork that I might find down the line. I've already found that I don't like the fact that they focus on the olympics so much...as opposed to self enlightenment / self defense. But the techniques are good and the players there are there to win...so it's good training.

The BJJ Master Text by Helio Gracie is very nice so is his new book Gracie Submissions with Royler. The true classic and still the best is Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique by Renzo and Royler Gracie. Anyways, enjoy your new training hall!

 

[bigfootsquatch]

The BJJ Master Text by Helio Gracie is very nice so is his new book Gracie Submissions with Royler. The true classic and still the best is Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique by Renzo and Royler Gracie. Anyways, enjoy your new training hall!

Hey Brian, I have Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique as well. It is a very good book, but buyer beware!, the book really isn't set up in any belt sequence, though it is color coded as such....and some of the moves are outdated. Overall it is definitely a step above many other jiu jitsu books, and other martial art instructionals in general.

 

[Ybot]

I think it's great that you decided to go with Judo. Judo is a great art (yet in my experience, far more painful than BJJ). That said, I'd like to go off into a but of a (related) rant.

It is true that BJJ came originally from Judo. So, really, the sets of techniques used in each art are the same (though it could be argued that in their current forms BJJ has a larger variety of technique, not only because it has a larger number of legal joints to attack, including knee, ankle, and wrist, but it also allows much more leeway when it comes to face contact allowing one to use their fore arm to pry a head up for a choke, or cross-face hard for position, in addition to allowing every technique used in competition Judo). My problem stems from the fact that because they use the same technique sets, they are the same. This simply is not true. Yes they are similar (closely related), but they are definitely different arts unique in and of themselves.

It was also previously noted that it is the difference in rule sets that account for the differences, and while I believe this to be true, I think that this explanation is too simplistic and doesn't really explain the differences enough. Based solely on that explanation it might be reasonably assumed that a slight change in BJJ rules to emphasize throwing could change BJJ into Judo, or more emphasis on newaza would make Judo mat work more BJJish.

When it comes down to it, Judoka and Jiu-Jitsieros ( Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu after all) look at mat work differently. Their strategies are different. The fact that Judo allows wins for pinning, and doesn't reward specific positions on the ground with points as BJJ does provides Judoka with a very different idea of what is valuable, and changes the dynamics compared to BJJ which rewards getting to and maintaining (for a short time) positions that it values, and BJJ doesn't care how long you spend on your back. It is no wonder that BJJ guard games are far more dynamic, and BJJ mat work tends to flow more then Judo mat work. Judo hold downs are in the end going to be far tighter, but their lack of positional points lead to far more choppy motion, with more explosive attacks. Also, because of the pinning turn overs from turtle become far more important, and so Judoka's turn-over game is going to be more dynamic.

Looking at the stand up portion, again I don't believe that it is simply the difference of time spent on takedowns that changes the games. In Judo it is possible to win with a single, well executed throw. This leads one to judge technical excellence based on how you make a person land and control of the person in the throw. In BJJ on the other hand all takedowns are worth the same point wise, and unless you injure your opponent with your throw, the match will continue on the ground no matter how technically perfect the throw was. It is no wonder that Jiu-Jitsiero's neglect training so hard on takedowns when a simple drag down may be far more prudent than a perfect Ippon style throw that allows your opponent a dominant position (ex. on your back) when the match continues with ground work. It is for this reason I think that Jiu-Jitsieros are far more cautious with big throws, and will tend to gravitate to to the less clean looking, but far more cautious types of takedowns, such as single & double legs, foot sweeps, drag downs, and various sacrifice type techniques.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've read far too many 'judo and BJJ are the same" threads online lately. Take into account that though I am a Judo fan, my experience with Judo is mostly as a spectator. I'd be curious to see how Judoka see the differences.

 

[D Dempsey]

• The atmosphere was very...how do you say...macho? Everyone there seemed to be up on the UFC bandwagon and the training was all about that.

I honestly find this a little surprising. I've been to a lot of BJJ schools and I've never really encountered this. Most of them are really laid back and the people are generally really friendly. If it was a beginner class I guess it would make a little more sense, as the newbies haven't been beaten up enough to know better.