Grappling Defense

[7starmantis]

I'm curious as to how a trained grappler would deal with some different situations.
I'll try to explain as best I can:

Often times a grappler is going to find an opening and (forgive me for my ignorance of grappling terms) "lunge" for the lower legs and shins, leading with the shoulder, in order to take the opponent down. Make sense so far?

Ok, so how would a grappler who initiates that movement deal with the opponent yielding backwards with the lunge, so as to take the feet further out behind the grappler, and applying an elbow downwards to the back of the head of the grappler?

Does that situation make sense? I hope I explained it properly enough. I'm just curious.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm curious as to how a trained grappler would deal with some different situations.
I'll try to explain as best I can:

Often times a grappler is going to find an opening and (forgive me for my ignorance of grappling terms) "lunge" for the lower legs and shins, leading with the shoulder, in order to take the opponent down. Make sense so far?

Ok, so how would a grappler who initiates that movement deal with the opponent yielding backwards with the lunge, so as to take the feet further out behind the grappler, and applying an elbow downwards to the back of the head of the grappler?

Does that situation make sense? I hope I explained it properly enough. I'm just curious.

7sm

To start off, yes, this makes sence and yes you explained it properly. I'll give 2 examples. Wrestlers practice the double leg and single leg takedowns all the time. Afterall, its one of their signature moves. If you've watched any of the UFC or other NHB fights, and have seen wrestlers such as Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr, you will notice how quickly they execute this move. Even if they do not get both legs, they can still continue forward with a walking motion from the knees to hook one of their feet behind the others leg and continue the takedown.

On the other end of the coin, you have Royce Gracie. Watch his fights and you'll see what appears to be a front kick that he is throwing. In reality, it is not a front kick, but more of a probe. He is using this kick to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the opponent. What does he do?? He moves back to avoid the "kick", and while doing this, he is also sliding back, leaning forward and off balancing himself. Gracie is then able to move in for the takedown.

Now, for the elbow to the head. Sure, it might be possible. If you watch the fights, you'll notice that in some cases the person doing the shooting, does take a few hits, but its usually nothing that is going to KO him. A counter to the double/single takedown is the sprawl. From this position, the person sprawling, has his body weight of the other person, preventing him from continuing the move.

Sorry for the long reply. I hope it shed some light on your question!

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm curious as to how a trained grappler would deal with some different situations.
I'll try to explain as best I can:

Often times a grappler is going to find an opening and (forgive me for my ignorance of grappling terms) "lunge" for the lower legs and shins, leading with the shoulder, in order to take the opponent down. Make sense so far?

Ok, so how would a grappler who initiates that movement deal with the opponent yielding backwards with the lunge, so as to take the feet further out behind the grappler, and applying an elbow downwards to the back of the head of the grappler?

Does that situation make sense? I hope I explained it properly enough. I'm just curious.

7sm

First of all that defense you just described is called a sprawl. It is a grappling counter. If a grappler dives under a sprawl I suppose he deserves what he got because he forgot to poke you in the eye or what ever so he could beat you to the leg before you took it away. Another counter you might try is to let the guy get your leg(as if you had a choice) and run your forarm across his face into a head and neck crank.
Sean

 

[7starmantis]

What about the arts that practice alot of yielding, seems when the leg takedown is executed they could ield out (to the side) and let the "shooter" just go by the side on their own momentum.

Do you guys practice these types of counters and all as well?

7sm

 

[MJS]

Any type of counter is possible, however it just being able to do it quick enough.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

So in systems like bjj do you guys practice any strikes and kicks or is it pretty much on the ground type training?

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
So in systems like bjj do you guys practice any strikes and kicks or is it pretty much on the ground type training?

7sm

When our Boise guys train for the val Tudos, if the guy is open you punch him in the face, then work Bjj.

 

[KanoLives]

I was practicing the sprawl in class the other day. Great defense against the shoot. The guy I was practicing against was bigger than me and he shot me with a full head of steam. Now he didn't realize I had sprawled and kept tryin' to take me down. I simply came under his neck and slapped him in a guillotine(sp?) choke. Now because I new he was bigger and could probablly pick me up over his back I countered that by falling on my back while keeping him in the choke. He tapped pretty much as soon as my back hit the floor. The art I study teaches side step defenses against the shoot and other such techs. Fact of the matter is unless you're trully fast to react, as mentioned above, I don't think these defenses are practical. I'd go with the sprawl any day.

:asian:

 

[JDenz]

The only time you would hit a wrestler with an elbow from your feet like that is if he was tired or you have taken his legs away from him in a real fight. There are a couple real basic things that you can do to counter a good sprawl. One is to turn the corner, When a guy sprawls on you you pivit on your hips (kinda hard to explain but basicly you are moving out of the way so he falls on his face and you use his movement to take his back. The second is a reshoot. When the guy sprawls on you you just shoot agian so you can get your hips under his. If you want to see the way to beat a shoot watch Mirko Crocrop he has a very good sprawl and strikes very well. I personally think the best way to beat a wrestler is let them shoot on one leg sprawl and continue to strike, unfortinitly I haven't met to many non wrestlers who can do it to wrestlers.

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
First of all that defense you just described is called a sprawl. It is a grappling counter. If a grappler dives under a sprawl I suppose he deserves what he got because he forgot to poke you in the eye or what ever so he could beat you to the leg before you took it away. Another counter you might try is to let the guy get your leg(as if you had a choice) and run your forarm across his face into a head and neck crank.
Sean

Let me sound a note of caution about all this "sprawl, sprawl" talk. Unless you are already a pretty darn good grappler, you are fooling yourself if you think you can sprawl at will. Its not that simple, as someone here has already pointed out very well. I don't think its a good idea to practice sprawling against some not-so-hot-at-grapplin' classmates and think you've got it covered. As for side-stepping; that is exceedingly unlikely unless the guy shooting is half-dead or drunk. Don't get me started on "poke in the eye"...

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by chinkoobake
Let me sound a note of caution about all this "sprawl, sprawl" talk. Unless you are already a pretty darn good grappler, you are fooling yourself if you think you can sprawl at will. Its not that simple, as someone here has already pointed out very well. I don't think its a good idea to practice sprawling against some not-so-hot-at-grapplin' classmates and think you've got it covered. As for side-stepping; that is exceedingly unlikely unless the guy shooting is half-dead or drunk. Don't get me started on "poke in the eye"...

Well, just like anything, be it your stand up fighting or your ground work, it will take considerable time to really be good at these moves.

Mike

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by chinkoobake
Let me sound a note of caution about all this "sprawl, sprawl" talk. Unless you are already a pretty darn good grappler, you are fooling yourself if you think you can sprawl at will. Its not that simple, as someone here has already pointed out very well. I don't think its a good idea to practice sprawling against some not-so-hot-at-grapplin' classmates and think you've got it covered. As for side-stepping; that is exceedingly unlikely unless the guy shooting is half-dead or drunk. Don't get me started on "poke in the eye"...

I have to disagree with the idea that you cannot sprawl at will. If this is the defense you know you are going to use against a take down, shoot, etc. Why couldn't you attempt it? Just curious to your reasoning. BTW I'm assuming that if someone is shooting in on ya then you have already been made aware that it was go time prior to the attempted shoot, take down, whatever. I mention this because.....well it's go time....time to be ready for anything as best you could.

As for the sprawl working after that......well that's up to the practitioner and his knowledge, skills, etc.

:asian:

 

[JDenz]

Lol you are talking about something that is easy to say and hard to do.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by JDenz
Lol you are talking about something that is easy to say and hard to do.

Maybe....but what's so hard about it? Just tryin to understand. My take on it was not if the sprawl works or doesn't work, rather, wether a person could do it at will. Wether it works or not is a whole different ball game with to many "what if" and variables. But the question remains, why couldn't someone attempt a sprawl at will?

:asian:

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by KanoLives
I have to disagree with the idea that you cannot sprawl at will. If this is the defense you know you are going to use against a take down, shoot, etc. Why couldn't you attempt it? Just curious to your reasoning. BTW I'm assuming that if someone is shooting in on ya then you have already been made aware that it was go time prior to the attempted shoot, take down, whatever. I mention this because.....well it's go time....time to be ready for anything as best you could.

As for the sprawl working after that......well that's up to the practitioner and his knowledge, skills, etc.

:asian:

The point was to sound a note of caution against the misconception that people could practice a few sprawls against their non-grappler classmates and feel in any way confident that they won't be taken down.

That's asking for trouble.

 

[chaosomega]

That's why I train with a freestyle wrestler for takedowns and takedown defence (sprawls, whizzers, etc...) She rocks!

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by chaosomega
That's why I train with a freestyle wrestler for takedowns and takedown defence (sprawls, whizzers, etc...) She rocks!

I hope "she" is a stronger than average woman

 

[chaosomega]

"She" Doesn't need to be. Her skills more than make up for it. She trains with guys on her wrestling team all the time, anyway.

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by chaosomega
"She" Doesn't need to be. Her skills more than make up for it. She trains with guys on her wrestling team all the time, anyway.

I see. So, its good training for her but not so much for everyone else.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by chinkoobake
I see. So, its good training for her but not so much for everyone else.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I just might be, but that comment leads me to believe that you dont think that you can learn anything by training with a female grappler?? Chaos said it best, it doesnt matter how strong the person is, its the tech. that counts. Again, I'll use this example. Look at Helio Gracie. Now, hes not the biggest and strongest man out there, but his skill and tech. is 100 times better than most of the huge guys out there. Why? Due to him being so small, he needed to adjust the techs. to work for him, the same way his son Royce has done.

Mike