Grappling and multiple enemies

[Disco]

This is in reference to trying to train against multi-attackers. I've been involved with some of those training drills at several different schools. My opinion, there worthless. You can bounce and throw them around all you want and they just get back up and keep coming at you. If and when you must fight more than one, you have to do some serious damage to people to keep them from coming back at you. You just can't practice and do that in training. Grappling can either be standing or ground work. The ground aspect is not practical for the street. If you should fall wrong with additional weight on you, or even no weight, just go to the ground at the wrong angle and you probably hurt yourself. You've already lost the fight. I'm sure some of you guys during training have hit the mats the wrong way. Just imagine if that mat was asphalt or concrete.

Should you learn some ground tactics? Yes! If for some reason you find yourself on the ground, learn how to get back up post haste. Just MHO. Thanks for letting me share
:asian:

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by Disco
Grappling can either be standing or ground work. The ground aspect is not practical for the street.

This sounds like someone who has never been in a fight on the street

 

[pknox]

As BJJ has already been mentioned, realize that while ground fighting is what the art is known for, there is a self-defense aspect to it as well. Scenarios like being attacked by a weapon wielding assailant (while unarmed), multiple attackers, and situations that don't advise going to the ground (say in an alley with broken glass, for example) are taught in that section of the curriculum. Contrary to what some people believe, there are throws taught in BJJ as well, and they are often utilized in these scenarios. Different instructors place different levels of emphasis on the self defense aspects, but it does exist. Check out Royce Gracie's book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-6376582-3401539?v=glance&s=books

As for ground grappling simply not working on the street, well, that depends. Obviously, with multiple opponents, holding one in your guard may be foolish (unless you're using him as a shield), and pulling guard (i.e. falling to the ground) might be suicide. However, being able to breakfall is a valuable skill, and in the event you do fall, it's great to be able to know what you're doing. A quick armbar, especially with the rather vocal "snap" and resultant screaming that accompanies it once you break the arm in question (when you don't really care whether or not the punk taps, it can actually be easy, and dare I say, enjoyable ) can be accomplished in seconds, and can surely be a detterent to his buddy. As for standing grappling, it's amazing how effective a judo throw can be when you drop the attacker right onto his head, or how a standing joint lock can be truly nasty when applied to completion. Realize that while many grapplers are sportsmen, when we are attacked, we often can behave rather unsportsmanlike. :asian:

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Disco
I'm sure some of you guys during training have hit the mats the wrong way. Just imagine if that mat was asphalt or concrete.

Actually, that's why breakfalling is usually the first thing taught anywhere where throws are executed (like in Judo). In this way, we minimize the chance of injury if somebody "hits the wrong way." The idea is to make the other guy do so. That's exactly why grappling can be so effective. The average person has not been taught to breakfall, and usually ends up hurting himself when dropped.

As for ground grappling, you are usually on the ground anyway. If you have fallen while trying to grapple, you obviously were standing to begin with, so that's not ground grappling. If I'm taken down by someone (let's say a wrestler) and fall on my back, I have learned to keep my head up so as not to bang it on the ground (another applicable skill). Yes, I may get knicked up by falling on my back, but at least I'm not out cold, like some people without grappling training may very well be. The beauty of ground grappling is that even on my back, with a guy on top of me, I still have many options with which I can end the altercation quickly. Most importantly, because I have been in that situation hundreds (maybe thousands) of times, I am less likely to panic, which may very well save my life.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Here are my thoughts.

1) If you fight multiple attackers who are strong and determined, you are going to get whumped whether you standup and strike or grapple. The best defense is to escape!

2) No grappler wants to go to ground with multiple attackers. However, it is beneficial if you can drop one of your attackers on his head. If you get taken down, mount-escape technique is even more important with multiple attackers.

3) Standup fighter often argue that grappling is ineffective against multiple attackers. Yet, can they take on two or three skilled, determined, and healthy attackers? I don't think so.

4) As for me, I got attacked by two guys when I was about 18. One had a knife. I ESCAPED UNHURT! You want to know how I defended myself. I jumped on my bike and pedaled like crazy! That's how.

 

[Cruentus]

Here is a fun story...

A friend of mine who does the NHB stuff (and who doesn't seem to see the value in training for anything other then the ring) once got into a situation w/ 4 people.

He did what he trained in the ring for; he executed a double leg takedown on the biggest guy, and clinched up with him to try to work some punches and possibly an arm lock or choke. The guy who was taken down just held on to him tight, while his 3 buddies kicked the crap out of him.

Moral: know what you are trained/training for. If your training for the ring, then this is great...you'll be tougher and more conditioned then most martialartists out there. But understand that what you are training for (the ring) is not going to be the same as a "real life" encounter where the terrain might be different, the person(s) may be armed with something, or their might be multiple attackers.

So...learning to grapple is important, as is learning to grapple against multiple attackers. But, don't learn a lesson the hard way like my friend had to. Your grappling strategy WILL change dramatically according to circumstances (terrain, weapons, multiple attackers, lack of 'rules,' etc.). By recognizing your circumstance and adapting accordingly, you'll be able to adequetly defend yourself.

 

[MNKaliGroupRayW]

That same thing happened to me, and I should know better!

I was working at a retail mall in college in '96 and a 16-17 year old HS kid with his three buddies caused me some grief in the parking lot on my way in. Short story is I didn't want to work over some minor 6-8years younger than me after he sucker punched me, so I head locked him and tried to talk him out of further trouble, well he struggled until we both fell to the ground and his three friends decided to tee off on me with their hightops! Luckily I covered and rolled well enough to only get kicked about a half dozen times, before getting up. But I ruined a pair of pants and had bruises for a week. BJJ/NHB does teach good ground cover and mobility if you are seated vs a standing apponent, but It is NOT an advantageous position, let me guarantee that!

Next time I'm sure there's going to be trouble I'll be less gentle until I'm certain of all outcomes.

Ray W