Grappling and Wing Tsun.

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I suppose i've done it again. Let me again apologize folks. I get a little up in arms about my Wing Tsun, and sometimes I'm not as tactful or diplomatic as I should be whist replying to some of ya'll.

I'm a little ashamed I lose my cool over words sometimes. I suppose it just comes from I have so much passion for the art and I get amped over this stuff. I just need a big chill pill.

So all BS aside, sorry for getting on peoples cases. I'll try to use a more diplomatic approach in my responses when things get a little heated.

All the best!

Jeff

 

[Vajramusti]

So before you go toting that "He's not good enough to be in our system" ****, why don't you check yourself before you wreck yourself. Stop assuming that you have all the answers and that me, by validating some grapplers point of view (which is by my reckoning spot on) should be condenmed on the spot. Again with the WT/WC/VT ignorance.

Geezer I'm sorry, but this is the kinda funky-chicken stuff i'm talking about.[/QUOTE]
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No need to get excited and no need to paint all wing chun people with the same brush. This topic comes up often.
The individuaL'S KILL AND DETERMINATION ARE IMPORTANT VARIABLES.sorry for the unintennded caps. Hit the wrong keys. Wing chun folks and grapplers vary in their skill in their own activity.

I play my own wing chun game-against grapplers or other stylists. I dont do wt or vt- doa particular line of wc. I have not seen the need for taking grappling or jj lessons.

In these discussions many folks put all wing chunners in one box or all grapplers in one box.

 

[geezer]

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...No need to get excited and no need to paint all wing chun people with the same brush. ...In these discussions many folks put all wing chunners in one box or all grapplers in one box.

Joy, I don't get by to visit your class often enough, but I do remember from one of the times that I have stopped by that one of your students was a very strong and athletic young man, probably in his early to mid-twenties. I commented to you that he had the look of a professional athlete, and I believe you replied that he had been a nationally ranked competitive wrestler. A wrestler of that level of skill and experience wouldn't be training with you if he didn't think that WC had a lot to offer a grappler. I think Joe might benefit from this observation!

 

[mook jong man]

I suppose i've done it again. Let me again apologize folks. I get a little up in arms about my Wing Tsun, and sometimes I'm not as tactful or diplomatic as I should be whist replying to some of ya'll.

I'm a little ashamed I lose my cool over words sometimes. I suppose it just comes from I have so much passion for the art and I get amped over this stuff. I just need a big chill pill.

So all BS aside, sorry for getting on peoples cases. I'll try to use a more diplomatic approach in my responses when things get a little heated.

All the best!

Jeff

No worries mate , you don't have to change your debating style.
We're not delicate little flowers around here.

I've been known to get a bit fired up too on occasion , we probably all have at some stage.
Everybody except Geezer I think , nothing seems to phase that dude , I reckon he must be some sort of Taoist priest lol.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The nature of grappling techniques is such that it is easy to really develop those skills because they are easier to use in the training hall. In the training, you get to really use those grappling techniques, and you can pull back the intensity so that nobody gets injured in the process, while still using the techniques with a lot of realism. That is a definite advantage when it comes to training. So a grappler has a better chance at developing a real comfort level and subsequently a real confidence in his techniques.

In a striking method, you cannot do that. You cannot dial back the intensity and still make the techniques work. If you hit someone for real, you injure him and maybe he even goes to the hospital. You run out of training partners very quickly if that's how you go about training. So if you dial it back, then the strikes are not effective and your partners needs to "acknowledge" them and pretend like they were effective, whether or not they would have been had they been real. This is a real disadvantage in training. You never get to really try it out on a live person and it can lead to questions or doubts about the ability to use them effectively. It resides to some degree in the realm of theory, and you need to be able to bridge that gap into reality when the fit hits the shan. That is a disadvantage in training, because you cannot practice doing it with absolute realism. But nevertheless, the potential is there and obviously there are ways to help bridge that gap, like hitting heavy bags, working on the dummy, etc., but it's still an approximation.

So when we see a matchup between a "grappler" and a "striker", when it's a competition type match the grappler has an automatic advantage: he can use his techniques for real, while a striker, in that context of a match cannot, and has some reluctance to even try. He ends up using less decisive strikes, because the goal of the match is not life-or-death. In the end, everyone wants to go home in more or less one piece. But given the nature of grappling techniques, the grappler doesn't have that same limitation. As I said earlier, the grappler can actually use his techniques, they are still effective, even if he dials it back so that there is no true injury, just push to the point of submission. It's much more difficult to dial back a strike "to the point of submission". So when the grappler drives in for the engagement, the striker sort of freezes up, doesn't use his strikes the way they were meant to be used, and ends up trying to grapple with the grappler. He gets taken down and tied up in a way that it becomes impossible to use his techniques effectively, and it's too late.

Michael, I think you have a partial truth here.
I believe a more accurate statement would be "some strikers dial their techniques back to an unrealistic level in training, so that their skills are more theoretical when it comes to knowing how to fight against tough, skilled opponents."
Let's take a look at one of the best strikers in the world, Anderson Silva. His skills are not theoretical. He can hit you standing or on the ground. He can hit you whether you are trying to punch him or take him down. He can hit you brutally from any angle. He can even knock you out while he is moving backwards.
The reason he can do all this is because of how he trains. He trains with boxers, so he knows what they can do. He trains with wrestlers, so he knows what they can do. He doesn't assume his strikes are too deadly to practice realistically and instruct his training partners to "acknowledge" them according to some theory of how they should react. He throws them hard enough in training so that his training partners naturally respond realistically. (That doesn't mean that he is trying to knock out his sparring partners any more than he is actually trying to break their arms when he practices an armbar.)

I get the feeling that you have not been following MMA much in recent years.

Grappling got a lot of attention in the UFC and other mixed martial arts venues. At least within the context of those venues, everyone perceived it as something that strikers were not prepared or capable of dealing with. That sort of became the conventional wisdom and I think now people don't question that wisdom, it's been accepted as gospel.

Case in point: there are plenty of successful strikers in MMA these days and no one thinks they are incapable of dealing with grapplers.

If he grabs you, don't try to grapple him off, because you are playing his game. Hit the hell out of him instead and get him to let go that way.

Another case in point. There are literally hundreds of examples showing that this approach doesn't work very well. The reason is not that the strikers were "hesitant to throw their strikes for real." The reason is that once the grappler has hold of you he is a) smothering your strikes and b) taking away your base and therefore your power.
What does work is having enough grappling skill to stop the immediate take down, make space and then hit the hell out of him. What also works is having enough grappling skill to immediately bounce back to your feet after you are taken down and then hit the hell out of him. What's even better is being so good at these tactics that your attacker is hesistant to even try shooting in on you because he knows your defence is so sharp. Then you can just play your own game and pick him apart with your strikes. Watch fights with Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, or Chuck Lidell for good examples of these strategies.

 

[Steve]

What does work is having enough grappling skill to stop the immediate take down, make space and then hit the hell out of him. What also works is having enough grappling skill to immediately bounce back to your feet after you are taken down and then hit the hell out of him. What's even better is being so good at these tactics that your attacker is hesistant to even try shooting in on you because he knows your defence is so sharp. Then you can just play your own game and pick him apart with your strikes. Watch fights with Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, or Chuck Lidell for good examples of these strategies.

Great points, Tony. There are several very good examples of excellent strikers who create opportunities for their striking by also be excellent grapplers.

Lyoto Machida is a striker who is also a black belt in BJJ. Anderson Silva is a black belt in BJJ. Chuck Lidell was an excellent wrestler. Going down the list in MMA, pretty much every featured striker is also a competent grappler. It's not what they know. They know the same things that other grapplers know. It's how they choose to use their skills that distinguishes them from others. Instead of looking for a takedown, they defend takedowns. They're not looking to smother their opponents in the clinch. Rather, they use the same skillset to protect themselves in the clinch until they have an opportunity to create space.

 

[geezer]

I've been known to get a bit fired up too on occasion , we probably all have at some stage. Everybody except Geezer I think , nothing seems to phase that dude , I reckon he must be some sort of Taoist priest lol.

Thanks! Maybe that all that anger management training I've been through is paying off! :uhyeah:

 

[Vajramusti]

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Joy, I don't get by to visit your class often enough, but I do remember from one of the times that I have stopped by that one of your students was a very strong and athletic young man, probably in his early to mid-twenties. I commented to you that he had the look of a professional athlete, and I believe you replied that he had been a nationally ranked competitive wrestler. A wrestler of that level of skill and experience wouldn't be training with you if he didn't think that WC had a lot to offer a grappler. I think Joe might benefit from this observation!

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Steve- you (not a universal you)are welcome to visit again. Different students show up on different days-their choice. What you noticed was correct. One of my students who now has finished with me is Joshua Santobianco now a Second Lieutenant in the US Army
and undergoing special training at Ft Benning, Ga. He has an All American medallion for Greco- Roman at his weight. When he first took up wing chun with me he was a High School wrestler from Delaware and then wrestled at Arizona State U.
He would not make the kind of statement that Jeff has made here. Josh knows that a well trained good wing chun person with the right structure and dynamics can hold their own against a grappler or a boxer or a Thai boxer.
All depends on who has received what kind of training and how much wing chun they understand and practice.
See snap shots at:
http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/chum_kiu_form.pdf
Good wing chun structure and dynamics can adjust to low level grappler attacks as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

The "clear advantage" is that wrestlers/grapplers don't delude themselves into thinking they are invincible. I worry about what ya'll *******s do because you can talk as much **** as you want about grappling, yet you DON'T EVEN TRY to find out why they can beat you within 30 seconds. It's pathetic. I AM a wing tsun man, and a good one. You say "waste my time worrying about WT and what others do?" I don't consider it a waste of time to study my enemy. Or other disciplines of martial arts. I consider all that don't woefully ignorant. And please correct me if i've mistaken what you were trying to say; But from what I understand, you think that I am bashing WT? Not in the slightest. But i'll gladly call you an idiot for saying it isn't an intelligent thing to train against the opponents that are most dangerous. Yes I take the wrestlers sides when they are right. Right about WT not having any ground game, because honestly, you DON'T see it in MMA. Whether or not we actually have it, there is no exposure except for what people see in the ring. So before you go toting that "He's not good enough to be in our system" ****, why don't you check yourself before you wreck yourself. Stop assuming that you have all the answers and that me, by validating some grapplers point of view (which is by my reckoning spot on) should be condenmed on the spot. Again with the WT/WC/VT ignorance.

Geezer I'm sorry, but this is the kinda funky-chicken stuff i'm talking about.

i'm not even a wing chun guy myself, so....meh.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael, I think you have a partial truth here.
I believe a more accurate statement would be "some strikers dial their techniques back to an unrealistic level in training, so that their skills are more theoretical when it comes to knowing how to fight against tough, skilled opponents."
Let's take a look at one of the best strikers in the world, Anderson Silva. His skills are not theoretical. He can hit you standing or on the ground. He can hit you whether you are trying to punch him or take him down. He can hit you brutally from any angle. He can even knock you out while he is moving backwards.
The reason he can do all this is because of how he trains. He trains with boxers, so he knows what they can do. He trains with wrestlers, so he knows what they can do. He doesn't assume his strikes are too deadly to practice realistically and instruct his training partners to "acknowledge" them according to some theory of how they should react. He throws them hard enough in training so that his training partners naturally respond realistically. (That doesn't mean that he is trying to knock out his sparring partners any more than he is actually trying to break their arms when he practices an armbar.)

I get the feeling that you have not been following MMA much in recent years.

Case in point: there are plenty of successful strikers in MMA these days and no one thinks they are incapable of dealing with grapplers.

Another case in point. There are literally hundreds of examples showing that this approach doesn't work very well. The reason is not that the strikers were "hesitant to throw their strikes for real." The reason is that once the grappler has hold of you he is a) smothering your strikes and b) taking away your base and therefore your power.
What does work is having enough grappling skill to stop the immediate take down, make space and then hit the hell out of him. What also works is having enough grappling skill to immediately bounce back to your feet after you are taken down and then hit the hell out of him. What's even better is being so good at these tactics that your attacker is hesistant to even try shooting in on you because he knows your defence is so sharp. Then you can just play your own game and pick him apart with your strikes. Watch fights with Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, or Chuck Lidell for good examples of these strategies.

first of all, yes, SOME strikers...and you are correct, I've not followed MMA in recent years, nor ever, to be honest. While I've caught a handful of fights on TV over the years, it was more by accident and the fact that there was nothing else to watch at the moment. I've simply never been interested in it.

I've never held MMA competitions to be THE yardstick against which all things must be measured. They have their valid issues, but are in no way universal in making a comparison or a judgement over what may or may not work.

When you've got two highly trained individuals agreeing to meet for a competition style combat, it creates its own reality. Within that context, it both allows for things and disallows for other things. There is a certain amount of caution and "feeling out" of the other guy, there is time to invest in strategies that may take several minutes to play out to fruition because the fight is scheduled to go that long, stuff like that. In an encounter on the street, there is no time for that. It is more likely to be full committment from the first moment, there is no time to invest in longer strategies, and it is likely to be over in seconds, well under half a minute.

So, I get what you are saying, and I appreciate what MMA competition offers in terms of example and experience. I never intend to diminish that. But I do not view it as THE answer, or THE yardstick, for what all may come and how everything works.

 

[geezer]

i'm not even a wing chun guy myself, so....meh.

Ha! Crane, it sounds like you've mastered anger-management too! LOL

 

[Steve]

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Steve- you (not a universal you)are welcome to visit again. Different students show up on different days-their choice. What you noticed was correct. One of my students who now has finished with me is Joshua Santobianco now a Second Lieutenant in the US Army
and undergoing special training at Ft Benning, Ga. He has an All American medallion for Greco- Roman at his weight. When he first took up wing chun with me he was a High School wrestler from Delaware and then wrestled at Arizona State U.
He would not make the kind of statement that Jeff has made here. Josh knows that a well trained good wing chun person with the right structure and dynamics can hold their own against a grappler or a boxer or a Thai boxer.
All depends on who has received what kind of training and how much wing chun they understand and practice.
See snap shots at:
http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/chum_kiu_form.pdf
Good wing chun structure and dynamics can adjust to low level grappler attacks as well.

The techniques would be interesting to explore in real life. The three panels (4-a, b and c) where Joy is defending against a low, single leg, has some good points.

In 4-a, I have a couple of comments. First, it's actually refreshing to see relatively good body positioning from Josh. His head is up and it looks as though he actually changed levels through his legs, rather than bending over at the waist (a common mistake). The one minor issue is that the wrestler would typically look for the single leg after setting it up.

In 4-b, there are a lot of good things going on. Joy's hips are back, his legs are wide, giving him a solid base. He's also pushing down on the head. Keeping it low. At this point, the easiest defense would be to neutralize the shoot by simply stepping back to clear the left foot while continuing to push the head down and away to create space.

I have questions about 4-c. It's difficult to see what's going on. It looks like Joy actually allows Josh to close, which would be problematic. Would you please explain a little more what is happening in this picture?

Edit: I just re-read your post, and realized that you are Joy. It's nice to meet you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

first of all, yes, SOME strikers...and you are correct, I've not followed MMA in recent years, nor ever, to be honest. While I've caught a handful of fights on TV over the years, it was more by accident and the fact that there was nothing else to watch at the moment. I've simply never been interested in it.

I've never held MMA competitions to be THE yardstick against which all things must be measured. They have their valid issues, but are in no way universal in making a comparison or a judgement over what may or may not work.

When you've got two highly trained individuals agreeing to meet for a competition style combat, it creates its own reality. Within that context, it both allows for things and disallows for other things. There is a certain amount of caution and "feeling out" of the other guy, there is time to invest in strategies that may take several minutes to play out to fruition because the fight is scheduled to go that long, stuff like that. In an encounter on the street, there is no time for that. It is more likely to be full committment from the first moment, there is no time to invest in longer strategies, and it is likely to be over in seconds, well under half a minute.

So, I get what you are saying, and I appreciate what MMA competition offers in terms of example and experience. I never intend to diminish that. But I do not view it as THE answer, or THE yardstick, for what all may come and how everything works.

I actually agree with you in general. There are some important differences between MMA competition and other situations of real-life violence and therefore there are implications for training in how you prepare. (I've been meaning to write a post on the subject to start some more constructive discussion than we aften have on the issue.) There are also important similarities and those also have implications. It seems that we have a disagreement on which category this falls under.

In my opinion, the concept that "to stop a competent grappler who has got ahold of you from taking you down, it works much better to apply grappling principles to stop the takedown and then hit him than to just try to stop the takedown by hitting him" is one of the lessons that applies to a street self-defense situation just as much as to a UFC match. This is supported by various fights I have witnessed over the years outside of competition, as well as experimentation in my own training. Perhaps your experiences suggest otherwise.

As I said, MMA is not perfectly representative of all forms of "real world violence." (Actually many forms of real world violence are distinctly different from each other, so the differences and similarities may vary depending on what you are comparing it to.) Still, if you want to claim that a given lesson from MMA doesn't apply to real life then I think it's useful to explain why that particular lesson doesn't carry over rather than just generalize about how MMA isn't a perfect representation of a street fight.

 

[geezer]

In my opinion, the concept that "to stop a competent grappler who has got ahold of you from taking you down, it works much better to apply grappling principles to stop the takedown and then hit him than to just try to stop the takedown by hitting him"...

Good point. A very basic example of this against an attempted double-leg would be to sprawl, crossface, and rotate behind to control your opponent. Sprawling stops or at least slows the attempted takedown, and a crossface is not just leverage to drive against the head so you can break the grip on your legs, it's a hard strike. At least the way I was taught it...

When I was a little kid of about 10 or 11, some Okie guy named Glenn McMinn told me something like this: If yer crossface don't move his nose over next to his ear, it ain't a good crossface. Then he showed us how to kinda corkscrew your wrist as you drive your arm across your opponent's face so it would bust him up real good. Of course he held back from telling us the rough stuff. That was for the older kids.

Glenn McMinn Sr.
Wrestling / 1965-1967/ Inducted 1986
Sun Devil wrestling's first All-American, McMinn earned an NCAA record for most wins in three years of competition, while compiling a record of 104-11-1, with 23 tournament victories. Glenn was a two-time member of the East-West All-Star team (1965-66). While posting a 35-3-0 record in career dual meets, he won two Western Athletic Conference Championships (1965-66) and once was runner-up (1967). McMinn placed second and third in the NCAA Championships in 1965 and 1967, with his only losses coming from wrestlers who went on to win World Championships. He was also second in the USA-AAU National Championships in 1967. McMinn was selected to the Arizona Wrestling Hall of Fame in 1976.

 

[K-man]

i'm not even a wing chun guy myself, so....meh.

Nor am I, but they do have have one or two good ideas occasionally.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nor am I, but they do have have one or two good ideas occasionally.

oh yeah, I'm not nocking it. I did train for a few years, but it's been another few years since those days.

 

[Vajramusti]

The techniques would be interesting to explore in real life. The three panels (4-a, b and c) where Joy is defending against a low, single leg, has some good points.

In 4-a, I have a couple of comments. First, it's actually refreshing to see relatively good body positioning from Josh. His head is up and it looks as though he actually changed levels through his legs, rather than bending over at the waist (a common mistake). The one minor issue is that the wrestler would typically look for the single leg after setting it up.

In 4-b, there are a lot of good things going on. Joy's hips are back, his legs are wide, giving him a solid base. He's also pushing down on the head. Keeping it low. At this point, the easiest defense would be to neutralize the shoot by simply stepping back to clear the left foot while continuing to push the head down and away to create space.

I have questions about 4-c. It's difficult to see what's going on. It looks like Joy actually allows Josh to close, which would be problematic. Would you please explain a little more what is happening in this picture?

Edit: I just re-read your post, and realized that you are Joy. It's nice to meet you.

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Hi Steve- I work on not letting people set up.Sharp wing chun timing can catch people between motions.
On 4c - I jam him with a subtle wing chun step turn coordinating with instantaneous two handed wing chun based twisting of his head affecting the head body connection.

 

[Steve]

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Hi Steve- I work on not letting people set up.Sharp wing chun timing can catch people between motions.
On 4c - I jam him with a subtle wing chun step turn coordinating with instantaneous two handed wing chun based twisting of his head affecting the head body connection.

I'm a visual guy and can't visualize it. Maybe I'll have an opportunity to see it some day.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good wishes Steve-back in the 50s doing summer cannery and farm jobs I lived in
Dayton-Walla Walla , Kemt-Seattle in Washington and had some boxing matches in Dayton and Seattle.

good wishes.