Grappling and Wing Tsun.

jeff_hasbrouck

Green Belt
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
165
Reaction score
1
Location
Bismarck, ND
Okay, so I've been doing WT just shy of a decade, but I've been wrestling for 20 years.

I've noticed more and more that many WT/WC guys and gals just do not care about or understand ground/fighting or grappling.

So my question is, what are you doing to make up for this? Are you cross-training? Do you teach your students anti-grappling techniques? Do you incorporate grappling techniques into your curriculum? Or is this something that you aren't doing anything about, but want to? And lastly, what grappling techniques in particular are you utilizing or do you find useful?

Would love to see where this topic goes ya'll!

All the best,

Jeff (Sifu Panda)
 

WC_lun

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
82
Location
Kansas City MO
My sifu is a holds black belts in Judo and JuiJitsu. A kuen brother is also a black belt in juijutsu and owns his own successful Juijitsu school. So to ignore the grappling aspect of fighting really wasn't an option . The more we got into it the more we realized Wing Chun basics such as structure, force direction, timing, etc all where equally important in grappling. While the range and base (ground) might have changed, if we stuck to the framework we already knew, we'd be okay. None of us purposefully take anything to the ground, but we are familiar enough with it that we are not helpless. I think that unless you have some of that type of training, you can be well training as a self defense person.
 

WC_lun

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
82
Location
Kansas City MO
There are other students in school that have different but equally high level training in other martial arts, including myself. While I agree it is fortunate that we have such resources in the school, it wasn't purely luck. The instructor wanted other high level martial artist in the school and wasn't worried about his Wing Chun in comparison to other systems. For my part, I did the research to find an instructor and school that fit what I wanted when I had decided I was no longer getting what I wanted out of the school I had been attending.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
We take the anti grappling approach, which is to say, we try to remain standing if possible, and if we end up on the ground, we fight to regain our feet.

Our group is lucky in that we have several with grappling experience: high school wrestlers, catch wrestlers, BJJ, Judo,
plus kung fu guys with throwing and chin na experience,
It's one thing to prevent a throw or takedown from someone who doesn't really know what they're doing, but these guys keep us honest.
 

Domino

Black Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
519
Reaction score
1
Location
Preston
I find it quite the opposite, we have no ground work experts but are always looking at 'what if' scenario or random take down attempts.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
I find it quite the opposite, we have no ground work experts but are always looking at 'what if' scenario or random take down attempts.

Good point. It's not always going to be textbook. It may be totally unorthadox from someone with little or no training.
 

blindsage

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
109
Location
Seattle, WA
Since most chinese styles, including Wing Chun have some grappling in them, you should specify if you mean strictly ground work.
 

WC_lun

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
82
Location
Kansas City MO
True blindsage. I don't think I've seen a Chinese system yet that doesn't have chin na and includes throws.
 
OP
jeff_hasbrouck

jeff_hasbrouck

Green Belt
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
165
Reaction score
1
Location
Bismarck, ND
Since most chinese styles, including Wing Chun have some grappling in them, you should specify if you mean strictly ground work.

I said specifically "Grappling". Which means everything from stand up, clinch, takendown, and ground. Grappling is an all inclusive term. If I wanted ground work, I would have said such.

I want to know what you do utilize, if any grappling techniques at all.

Examples include: From top/and clinch- hand fighting, locks, joint manipulations, holds, submissions, throws, and take-downs.

From bottom- locks, joints manipulations, subs, hand fighting, anti-grap's anything.

I mean any and everything that you do that doesn't exclusively involve striking.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
I said specifically "Grappling". Which means everything from stand up, clinch, takendown, and ground. Grappling is an all inclusive term. If I wanted ground work, I would have said such.

I want to know what you do utilize, if any grappling techniques at all.

Examples include: From top/and clinch- hand fighting, locks, joint manipulations, holds, submissions, throws, and take-downs.

From bottom- locks, joints manipulations, subs, hand fighting, anti-grap's anything.

I mean any and everything that you do that doesn't exclusively involve striking.


I'm sorry. I responded to your OP thinking you asked about how we deal with grappling, not what type of grappling we do, if any. If I may start over.
As stated above, if our opponent is grappling us, we use an anti grappling approach, but there are a few locks and throws that we use as well, given the opportunity.
My sifu trained with Leung Ting in HK, and he remarked to me that Leung Ting could throw like a judo master, but that he didn't show much of it outside of his advanced students.
We do some basic chin na, in the form of wrist locks, elbow cranks, shoulder locks, etc, but not many. Same with throws. A few of the basic sweep/throws, hip throws and that sort of thing.

I think WC as a whole tends to neglect grappling, whether it be throws or locks, (even though so many of these movements are found in our forms) in favor of striking.

I don't know if it's always been this way in WC, or if it's something that came along from the HK period of Yip Man's teaching.
 

WC_lun

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
82
Location
Kansas City MO
The WC I train actually does have a LOT of throws, chin na, and anti grappling. Of course, my sifu's original Wing Chun and best teacher was Pao Hua WC, and anything white crane is going to involve a lot of chin na. I think it might just be different lineages focus on different things. Also, schools of even the same lineage tend to be a bit different as well. The only thing we don't focus on a lot is submissions. We aren't a sport school and tend to concentrate on just ending the situation through whatever means neccessary in a given situation. Nothing wrong with submissions. We may not appreciate them enough <shrugs>
 
OP
jeff_hasbrouck

jeff_hasbrouck

Green Belt
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
165
Reaction score
1
Location
Bismarck, ND
My old Sifu is a student of LT, and whenever he came back from hk, he would always have new stuff to show us. The problem I see with LTWT, is the utter lack of knowledge and training around the world with grappling/anti-grappling. Of course we want anti-grappling before we use a remedial approach. And LT can throw like a boss. I've touched hands with him a few times at seminar's and he is very very good. His technique is truley masterful, I went at him full force (at his request) and he just kinda threw me around, never hurting me, just gently reminding me that I had no chance in hell lol... Sorry, just remembering the good ole days there... back to the point.

Even having a sifu who travelled to HK, bulgaria and all over, he still didn't know **** about grappling. And I've been grappling since I was a little kid, so it kinda irks me that someone who claims to be a master of any system doesn't understand basic concepts of grappling. If your a master, apparently you not only have skill in your art, but you are versed in other types of fighting as well. Or at least understand the concepts of other martial arts. It's like "country" girls who have never been on a horse but wear big *** belt buckles... We call them buckle bunnies. Well same thing with a Sifu who can't do basic grappling or understand the concepts, to me he is pretty worthless from a self-defense standpoint.

There are a few things that most people overlook when dealing with wrestlers/grapplers. Most people have this vision in their mind of a huge muscle bound guy that isn't very fast... Not true, grapplers are trained to choke, break, and manipulate joints very quickly. Grapplers train full-contact 100% of the time. They train like they fight. They are very dangerous opponents. When I was a kid, I was wrestling this guy (in a school tournament), and I was trying to throw him in a "Head and arm"; Well this guy was very tall and skinny, and when I finally did throw him (after a great fight!) I threw him so hard, my feet came off the ground and I literally slammed my body on top of his. I broke 4 of his ribs on contact and he was spitting up blood instantly. They carted him off in the ambulance immeadiately. I was scared out of my mind that I had just seriously injured this kid. It really opened my eyes to the dangers of grappling, even on a technique that is relatively safe.

Anyways thanks for all the replies, and yes I am looking for specific techniques that ya'll find work particularly well in certain situations. I'm just trying to get all of us to see the possibility of new and innovative ideas for training grappling.
 

chinaboxer

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
there is no such thing as "anti grappling", you have to learn "grappling" concepts and principles in order to stay on your feet against a grappler trying to take you down. this is why i always say that wing chun fighters are really grapplers in disguise, but our objective is to use the grappling concepts of how to handle pressure to stay on our feet and knock them out rather than take the person down to submit them.

all wing chun is on a conceptual level is "how to handle pressure" and "problem solving". this is the exact same concept for grapplers. but if you focus on "techniques" and stray away from "concepts", this is IMO where people get confused and don't see the two being the same thing.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
there is no such thing as "anti grappling", you have to learn "grappling" concepts and principles in order to stay on your feet against a grappler trying to take you down. this is why i always say that wing chun fighters are really grapplers in disguise, but our objective is to use the grappling concepts of how to handle pressure to stay on our feet and knock them out rather than take the person down to submit them.

all wing chun is on a conceptual level is "how to handle pressure" and "problem solving". this is the exact same concept for grapplers. but if you focus on "techniques" and stray away from "concepts", this is IMO where people get confused and don't see the two being the same thing.

I don't disagree with any of this, in fact, I consider chi sau concepts as useful against a grappler as I do a striker. As you said, it's all about handling pressure.
When I use the term "anti-grappling", I don't mean that it is a bunch of self defense techniques. It is conceptual. I use the term to develop a mindset of not wrestling against them, but instead, fight them. Use WC/WT/VT concepts to overcome them.

The downfall of many who go up against a grappler is they try to out wrestle them.
 
OP
jeff_hasbrouck

jeff_hasbrouck

Green Belt
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
165
Reaction score
1
Location
Bismarck, ND
there is no such thing as "anti grappling", you have to learn "grappling" concepts and principles in order to stay on your feet against a grappler trying to take you down. this is why i always say that wing chun fighters are really grapplers in disguise, but our objective is to use the grappling concepts of how to handle pressure to stay on our feet and knock them out rather than take the person down to submit them.

all wing chun is on a conceptual level is "how to handle pressure" and "problem solving". this is the exact same concept for grapplers. but if you focus on "techniques" and stray away from "concepts", this is IMO where people get confused and don't see the two being the same thing.

Really? No such thing as anti-grappling? I don't usually go for the throat after one post, but I think your gonna have to get a knowledge bomb dropped on you before you understand this.

Grappling is real yes? Anti is a real word yes? So anti-grappling would be techniques that make you a hard target by not giving the grappler an opprotunity to employ grappling tactics against you.

I AM a grappler, and WT doesn't use grappling techniques. We don't make a point to grab and hold anything. That is grappling's core. Yes we share some same principals, like the centerline theory and angle of attack, but thats about it. Grapplers work off 3 different levels (head, body legs), there are no ranges, and is all about submissions, there is no striking in grappling. Just dynamic holds. I think your theoretcial analysis of "How to handle pressure" and "Problem Sovling" is incorrect as well. What WT and grappling has in common is that we know how to not get stuck, we keep moving forward untill something works. We don't need to do the same thing twice. We don't back up, we don't give up, and we are always on the offensive.

WT Anti-grappling is a very real thing. Starting from the way we utilze our stance. We keep both our feet parallel so as to not invite a take-down to either leg. Our hands are held in front of us in a triangle (man-sau/wu-sau) and we stand erect. All of these things are a physical deterrent to a grappler. As a grappler, I am looking for an opening, and really the only free and clear opening is the leg, which WT would combat with chain punches, a remedial technique would be head control, and an elbow/and or leg technique. Our chain-punching and chain-kicking is about all the anti-grappling we really need. The rest is almost all completely remedial techniques.

Anti-grappling is how you stay on your feet; Grappling is the remedial techniques employed after we are already being grappled. Plain and simple.
 
OP
jeff_hasbrouck

jeff_hasbrouck

Green Belt
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
165
Reaction score
1
Location
Bismarck, ND
I don't disagree with any of this, in fact, I consider chi sau concepts as useful against a grappler as I do a striker. As you said, it's all about handling pressure.
When I use the term "anti-grappling", I don't mean that it is a bunch of self defense techniques. It is conceptual. I use the term to develop a mindset of not wrestling against them, but instead, fight them. Use WC/WT/VT concepts to overcome them.

The downfall of many who go up against a grappler is they try to out wrestle them.

Yak,

Anti-grappling is employing techniques and principles like chi-sau against a grappler. I agree with what your saying not to boxer a boxer, wrestler a wrestler or kick a kicker. Anti anything is the antidote. Utilizing the same technique that is being employed against us is the same as, I.E. grappling against a grappler is not smart, but utilizing WT techniques, theories and principles is anti-grappling.

Thanks again for all your posts! Sometimes, just by reading your posts, I understand better what other people are saying. Damn I wish I could have just a week of your time to pick your brain! You seem to really understand the concepts of WT/WC.

Your the best man!

All the best,

Jeff
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
19,540
Reaction score
5,074
Location
Covington, WA
Hey, if anyone wants to try out any anti-grappling with me, I'd be game. I make no claims to being a bad *** (anything but), but I do like grappling, and I'd be curious to see how a different approach pans out on the mats. :)
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
Yak,

Anti-grappling is employing techniques and principles like chi-sau against a grappler. I agree with what your saying not to boxer a boxer, wrestler a wrestler or kick a kicker. Anti anything is the antidote. Utilizing the same technique that is being employed against us is the same as, I.E. grappling against a grappler is not smart, but utilizing WT techniques, theories and principles is anti-grappling.

Thanks again for all your posts! Sometimes, just by reading your posts, I understand better what other people are saying. Damn I wish I could have just a week of your time to pick your brain! You seem to really understand the concepts of WT/WC.

Your the best man!

All the best,

Jeff


I'm sure that would be 6 1/2 days more than necessary, but thanks just the same.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
Hey, if anyone wants to try out any anti-grappling with me, I'd be game. I make no claims to being a bad *** (anything but), but I do like grappling, and I'd be curious to see how a different approach pans out on the mats. :)

I like getting together with guys from other MA systems. Approached with the right attitude it doesn't have to be a pecker measuring contest and everyone comes away having learned something.
I wish you were not on the oppositte side of the country.
 
Top