Grandmother Hit With Taser

[Archangel M]

Yeah, the Taser does have a flammability ignition risk. We can't carry oil based OC spray because of flammability in conjunction w/Taser application.

I wouldn't recommend using a Taser near a lot of O2. Of course an O2 tent is different from a nasal cannula where there isn't a cloud of pure O2 floating around. But better safe than sorry.

 

[MJS]

Yeah, the Taser does have a flammability ignition risk. We can't carry oil based OC spray because of flammability in conjunction w/Taser application.

I wouldn't recommend using a Taser near a lot of O2. Of course an O2 tent is different from a nasal cannula where there isn't a cloud of pure O2 floating around. But better safe than sorry.

Assuming there was no O2 tank in the area, or any other flammable source, is there still a risk of clothing catching on fire, under normal circumstances?

 

[Archangel M]

Assuming there was no O2 tank in the area, or any other flammable source, is there still a risk of clothing catching on fire, under normal circumstances?

No. Not unless a spark of static from touching a doorknob would normally cause you to burst into flames.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:


http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

Do not use the taser on the following groups of people:
- Anyone with a dysfunctional heart
- Anyone connected to oxygen tanks or other life support systems
- Pregnant women
- Small children​

http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/802BBC12-2D46-45F1-B19E-ECA9CFBC511E/0/507POLICY.pdf

THE TASER WILL NOT BE USED:
1. When any subject who is saturated with, or in the presence of, any gasses or flammable liquids, to include OC
2. In areas where compressed oxygen is present, such as Medical Facilities and Emergency Rooms
3. Houses where ether or methamphetamine labs are suspected
4. Any known or obviously pregnant female

http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Police/Policies/CHAPTER9.pdf

Officers shall not use the ERD/TASER in the following situations:
1. When a subject is passively resisting.
2. When a subject is handcuffed, unless his/her behavior rises to the level of active
aggression.
3. When a subject is on a slanted roof or near the edge of a building, to minimize
the possibility of the subject falling.
4. When a subject is in a swimming pool or in deep body of water, to minimize the
chance of drowning.
5. When a subject is operating a moving vehicle.
6. Near flammable gases or liquids, including oxygen cylinders used as part of a
breathing apparatus or system.
7. In drug houses where ether or other flammable liquids are suspected.
8. No officer shall playfully, maliciously or intentionally misuse or display an ERD/TASER.​

​

​

 

[sgtmac_46]

"Police, fire report: Static spark near oxygen tank ignites fire"

I repeat.......'OXYGEN IS AN OXIDIZER......IT DOES NOT IGNITE!'.....a little basic chemistry.

 

[sgtmac_46]

But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.

What about 'Oxygen is an oxidizer, it does not burn' was not clear?

They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)

I know how it works, I work part time at such a hospital PD.

That is what shocks (no pun intended) me so much. I mean they were cops. I presume stronger than the old lady on oxygen!

Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Deaf

I reiterate the question I originally posted......how many of your 'Doctor Strong' restraints were done on a subject armed with a knife? Can I assume 'ZERO'?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:

Those are not 'facts' those are sample policies recommended by one interest group or another......for example, this one....

http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

Do not use the taser on the following groups of people:
- Anyone with a dysfunctional heart
- Anyone connected to oxygen tanks or other life support systems
- Pregnant women
- Small children ​

Is a sample policy recommendation from Great Britain.........as for the asinine 'anyone with a dysfunctional heart' it's entirely pointless and unworkable.​

http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/802BBC12-2D46-45F1-B19E-ECA9CFBC511E/0/507POLICY.pdf

THE TASER WILL NOT BE USED:
1. When any subject who is saturated with, or in the presence of, any gasses or flammable liquids, to include OC
2. In areas where compressed oxygen is present, such as Medical Facilities and Emergency Rooms
3. Houses where ether or methamphetamine labs are suspected
4. Any known or obviously pregnant female

​

Most of those have to do with flammable chemicals. The oxygen issue is rather silly due to the very low likelihood of a taser igniting some fabric.........and since in the discussed Taser deployment there WAS not fire, entirely irrelavent to the discussion or your point.
​

http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Police/Policies/CHAPTER9.pdf​

Officers shall not use the ERD/TASER in the following situations:
1. When a subject is passively resisting.
2. When a subject is handcuffed, unless his/her behavior rises to the level of active
aggression.
3. When a subject is on a slanted roof or near the edge of a building, to minimize
the possibility of the subject falling.
4. When a subject is in a swimming pool or in deep body of water, to minimize the
chance of drowning.
5. When a subject is operating a moving vehicle.
6. Near flammable gases or liquids, including oxygen cylinders used as part of a
breathing apparatus or system.
7. In drug houses where ether or other flammable liquids are suspected.

8. No officer shall playfully, maliciously or intentionally misuse or display an ERD/TASER.​

Again, the only relavent policy is the oxygen issue, which is entirely IRRELAVENT, as there was no fire.

The real issue that you had was that an elderly woman was Tasered, not that there was an oxygen tank nearby, so lets not mix issues. There was no fire as a result, so that issue is moot and a red-herring.

As to the issue of Tasering an elderly woman armed with a knife, i reiterate that you made the point that you have a different point of view as part of a 'Doctor Strong' program.........but I reiterate, do you have any training and experience with subjects armed with a knife in that environment? If not, then your experience with that program is not applicable to this issue.

 

[sgtmac_46]

To show that i'm not entirely set in my ways, I acknowledge a minor interesting point in this discussion, that of the issue of O2..........as I have access to BOTH a Taser and O2, i'll test the issue to determine if we can use a Taser in combination with O2 to cause fabric to catch fire.

My strong suspicion is that we will not be able to do so..........the reason being that the heat produced by a Taser is in the resistance stage of the current entering the body, and that is minimal.

Fabric does not present enough resistance to the Taser to build up enough heat to ignite. Gasoline, with it's gasses and very low flashpoint, is ignitable.

But I strongly suspect that even in an oxygen rich enviroment, fabric will not ignite from a Taser current.

We'll see, and i'll post a video of my results on youtube in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Tez3]

I suppose making the little old lady a cup of tea and offering to talk things over with her wasn't an option here? Oh no, it turned into a Hollywood style farce, police called, her getting a knife out, the police getting their guns, tazers whatever, talk about overkill and you wonder why we found it so funny. A lot to be said about the local bobby popping in ( if the police have to to be called, more a case for a doctor actually) and telling her it's alright and putting the kettle on.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I suppose making the little old lady a cup of tea and offering to talk things over with her wasn't an option here? Oh no, it turned into a Hollywood style farce, police called, her getting a knife out, the police getting their guns, tazers whatever, talk about overkill and you wonder why we found it so funny. A lot to be said about the local bobby popping in ( if the police have to to be called, more a case for a doctor actually) and telling her it's alright and putting the kettle on.

I agree with you there......it was more of a case where they should have called a doctor.

The reality is that those folks won't show up while someone is armed with a knife.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with you there......it was more of a case where they should have called a doctor.

The reality is that those folks won't show up while someone is armed with a knife.

Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street' and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?

 

[MJS]

Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:


http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

Do not use the taser on the following groups of people:
- Anyone with a dysfunctional heart
- Anyone connected to oxygen tanks or other life support systems
- Pregnant women
- Small children​

http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/802BBC12-2D46-45F1-B19E-ECA9CFBC511E/0/507POLICY.pdf

THE TASER WILL NOT BE USED:
1. When any subject who is saturated with, or in the presence of, any gasses or flammable liquids, to include OC
2. In areas where compressed oxygen is present, such as Medical Facilities and Emergency Rooms
3. Houses where ether or methamphetamine labs are suspected
4. Any known or obviously pregnant female ​

http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Police/Policies/CHAPTER9.pdf​

Officers shall not use the ERD/TASER in the following situations:
1. When a subject is passively resisting.
2. When a subject is handcuffed, unless his/her behavior rises to the level of active
aggression.
3. When a subject is on a slanted roof or near the edge of a building, to minimize
the possibility of the subject falling.
4. When a subject is in a swimming pool or in deep body of water, to minimize the
chance of drowning.
5. When a subject is operating a moving vehicle.
6. Near flammable gases or liquids, including oxygen cylinders used as part of a
breathing apparatus or system.
7. In drug houses where ether or other flammable liquids are suspected.

8. No officer shall playfully, maliciously or intentionally misuse or display an ERD/TASER.​

Thanks for the links. I'll just address 2 things.

1) Regarding the first link...how can an officer determine, just from looking at someone, whether or not they have a pre-existing heart condition? That'd be like me looking at someone and trying to figure out if they're a pro boxer or a BJJ Black Belt.

2) I'm assuming those links that you posted are stats from those PDs? I would still like to know what the exact policies are for the PD in question. Again, while the use of the Taser in this case, may've been over board, until we know the exact policy on when they can/can't use it, we can all armchair QB at best.

 

[MJS]

Those are not 'facts' those are sample policies recommended by one interest group or another......for example, this one....

Is a sample policy recommendation from Great Britain.........as for the asinine 'anyone with a dysfunctional heart' it's entirely pointless and unworkable.[/font][/left]

Most of those have to do with flammable chemicals. The oxygen issue is rather silly due to the very low likelihood of a taser igniting some fabric.........and since in the discussed Taser deployment there WAS not fire, entirely irrelavent to the discussion or your point.[/font]
[/left]


Again, the only relavent policy is the oxygen issue, which is entirely IRRELAVENT, as there was no fire.

The real issue that you had was that an elderly woman was Tasered, not that there was an oxygen tank nearby, so lets not mix issues. There was no fire as a result, so that issue is moot and a red-herring.

As to the issue of Tasering an elderly woman armed with a knife, i reiterate that you made the point that you have a different point of view as part of a 'Doctor Strong' program.........but I reiterate, do you have any training and experience with subjects armed with a knife in that environment? If not, then your experience with that program is not applicable to this issue.

And the last part of your post is just the point I was trying to make. We're talking about 2 different situations here....use of force in a hospital vs use of force in LE capacity. I can't sum it up better than what you said.

 

[MJS]

Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street' and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?

Hmm...and this is very similar to the comments that I was reading regarding that large, out of control man that my PD had to deal with. People were asking why the cops were sent when the guy needed to go to the hospital. See, herein lies the difference...the EMTs, Medics, Firefighters, are not going to enter an unsafe area. That is the job of the PD, nobody else. Quite a while back, there was an incident in the city where I work. Guy was talking about suicide, and stated that he had had a gun. The ambulance got there first. Instead of staging in the area until PD got there, like we told them, this yahoo goes in. What happened? As soon as the guy saw the guy from the ambulance, he blew his own head off!

Not saying that if the cop walked in, the guy wouldn't have done the same damn thing. Difference is, the cops a) have guns, so God forbid this guy pointed the gun at the cop, at least he would've had a line of defense, b) its a dangerous scene, so the cops are the ones to deal with it first, no matter whats going on, c) the cops are more capable of negotiating with someone.

So yeah, one would think that if someone says they want to end their life, well, every PD that I know of, in my area, goes to those calls. Again, policy will vary from place to place. Where would they have taken here? Nowhere. They would have made sure the scene was safe for the medics, firefighters, etc. Interestingly enough, many times, where I work, we'll just send an ambulance or the FD, and many times, the patient becomes combative, so they request PD.

I find it funny that some people look at this lady and think because of her age, even though she had a knife, she was no threat. People let age fool them. LOL. Remember that clip that was posted on here, about that old guy and that young kid who got into an argument on the bus? The young punk though he was all big and bad and what happened? The "Old Man" kicked his ***! LMFAO!!! Sent that kid back to his seat with a busted up face. LOL! Punk most likely though the old man was going to be a push over.

 

[Tez3]

Hmm...and this is very similar to the comments that I was reading regarding that large, out of control man that my PD had to deal with. People were asking why the cops were sent when the guy needed to go to the hospital. See, herein lies the difference...the EMTs, Medics, Firefighters, are not going to enter an unsafe area. That is the job of the PD, nobody else. Quite a while back, there was an incident in the city where I work. Guy was talking about suicide, and stated that he had had a gun. The ambulance got there first. Instead of staging in the area until PD got there, like we told them, this yahoo goes in. What happened? As soon as the guy saw the guy from the ambulance, he blew his own head off!

Not saying that if the cop walked in, the guy wouldn't have done the same damn thing. Difference is, the cops a) have guns, so God forbid this guy pointed the gun at the cop, at least he would've had a line of defense, b) its a dangerous scene, so the cops are the ones to deal with it first, no matter whats going on, c) the cops are more capable of negotiating with someone.

So yeah, one would think that if someone says they want to end their life, well, every PD that I know of, in my area, goes to those calls. Again, policy will vary from place to place. Where would they have taken here? Nowhere. They would have made sure the scene was safe for the medics, firefighters, etc. Interestingly enough, many times, where I work, we'll just send an ambulance or the FD, and many times, the patient becomes combative, so they request PD.

I find it funny that some people look at this lady and think because of her age, even though she had a knife, she was no threat. People let age fool them. LOL. Remember that clip that was posted on here, about that old guy and that young kid who got into an argument on the bus? The young punk though he was all big and bad and what happened? The "Old Man" kicked his ***! LMFAO!!! Sent that kid back to his seat with a busted up face. LOL! Punk most likely though the old man was going to be a push over.

Er, no I wasn't mistaking the age of the woman for her being less dangerous..sigh.
I was reading the OP and seeing that the police were called because she had said she wanted to end her life and that when they got there and tried to move her she got out the knife. I wasn't saying she wasn't dangerous but what I am saying is that the situation was created by calling the police in the first place.

Here, if the ambulance personnel had decided police were needed, he/she would have walked in and said. 'what's up love,' told relatives to put the kettle on ( thus getting them out of the way so he could speak to the old lady) and talked gently to the old lady, the situation would have resolved without her thinking she had to defend herself...well how would you feel about being forcibly taken away to the local mental hospital?.The article said she'd expressed the wish to die, it didn't say she was planning to end her life by violent means, it didn't say she was brandishing a knife nor that she took it out at the medics, it said she got it out when the police tried to move her, why were they trying to move her?

It didn't say she had a knife out first, it said she got it out after the police arrived so the situation couldn't have been described as dangerous to start with could it? I'm following the timeline given and the actions from then on, it was the police arriving that caused her to bring the knife out so if she'd been talked to gently in the first place both by her son and then by the police, the situation wouldn't have escalated. I'm not saying the police are at fault initially, you don't know what the son said to the old woman to get her so upset, maybe something along the lines of 'the police are coming to take you away, you mad old woman etc etc'.

People are reading into what info the article has given a whole different situation.

 

[MJS]

Er, no I wasn't mistaking the age of the woman for her being less dangerous..sigh.
I was reading the OP and seeing that the police were called because she had said she wanted to end her life and that when they got there and tried to move her she got out the knife. I wasn't saying she wasn't dangerous but what I am saying is that the situation was created by calling the police in the first place.

Guess I was just commenting on your...how shall I say...less than concerned tone, because the police went to a call, a suicidal call, and somehow, its not ok, because this woman was old and wanted to die? Sounds like suicide is a normal call for the cops to go on. Maybe not in England, but all the PDs here that I'm familiar with, they go. And I may have missed it, but where does it say that they tried to move her? The link that I posted, states that she pulled the knife from under her pillow if they tried to take her from her home.

Sorry, this situation was created by the woman herself. She had her mind set on dying, long before the cops got there. She most likely got upset because she knew that now that the cops and EMS was on the way, her plan was not going as anticipated.

Here, if the ambulance personnel had decided police were needed, he/she would have walked in and said. 'what's up love,' told relatives to put the kettle on ( thus getting them out of the way so he could speak to the old lady) and talked gently to the old lady, the situation would have resolved without her thinking she had to defend herself...well how would you feel about being forcibly taken away to the local mental hospital?.The article said she'd expressed the wish to die, it didn't say she was planning to end her life by violent means, it didn't say she was brandishing a knife nor that she took it out at the medics, it said she got it out when the police tried to move her, why were they trying to move her?

Again, you mention they were trying to move her. Could you please post the link to the article that you're reading? As for the rest of this...I'm assuming you read my post regarding that guy that shot himself when the ambulance worker walked in? I didn't know that your basic EMT was trained in negotiations with suicidal parties. Maybe there are some states that do train them, I dont know. And how do you know the situation would have calmly been resolved? So you're telling me that if an EMS worker, calmly talks to a suicidal person, that they're always going to talk them out of killing themselves?

It didn't say she had a knife out first, it said she got it out after the police arrived so the situation couldn't have been described as dangerous to start with could it?

And again, unless you know the policy for this PD, you have no idea whether or not its protocol to go or not. If your opinion, it wasnt right. That fine, as long as you realize that regardless of your opinion, the rules of that PD will supercede that. For example...where I work, if its an accidental OD, the PD does not respond...unless its deemed after EMS arrives that it was intentional. Now, if its clear that its intentional right from the beginning, then yes, PD always goes.

I'm following the timeline given and the actions from then on, it was the police arriving that caused her to bring the knife out so if she'd been talked to gently in the first place both by her son and then by the police, the situation wouldn't have escalated. I'm not saying the police are at fault initially, you don't know what the son said to the old woman to get her so upset, maybe something along the lines of 'the police are coming to take you away, you mad old woman etc etc'.

Now that I think about it, how do any of us know if they didn't try talking first? Were you there? I know I wasn't. And I doubt anyone else posting here was either. Maybe she snapped when she saw the cop and pulled the knife then...again, I dont know.

People are reading into what info the article has given a whole different situation.

Well, as always, anytime a story like this is posted, its rare that we, the readers, will ever get the true and the whole story. The paper will print what they want. Amazing how many times I've dispatched officers to calls and the media, who's listening on scanners, call to find out whats going on, and somehow they...surprise surprise...trump up the call, to something that it wasnt from the beginning. A 3 car accident has been twisted to a fatal. WHAT?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

Actually, now that I think about it, I think we've had a similar discussion before. Yup, right here. I dont think that I've seen a thread yet, in which an article has been posted, and some sort of speculation hasnt taken place. A good majority of the forums would close up and die, if people didn't. Its what makes the discussion I suppose. I mean, I said in my OP that the article was vauge. However, while none of us know the policy for that dept., theres nothing wrong, IMHO, with debate. Like I said, all we can do is armchair QB at best.

 

[Archangel M]

We get sent to suicidal person calls ALL the time. If the person is deemed a threat to themselves or others they are taken to the hospital and can be held there under the states Mental Hygiene Law. It's not a crime to say you want to kill yourself, but if you or your loved one calls 911 about it then we are obligated to respond. I have no idea what Tez is talking about.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street' and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?

You may have some points.........and here's the kicker. There is nothing, in the US anyway, that prevents individuals with 'expertise' in such matters, from starting a partnership with their local law enforcement agencies.

Develop policies and procedures, and approach protocol, and be on call for such mental health issues. They can respond, with police as backup, and make contact with the suicidal person, and attempt to use 'psychology', 'conversation' and other conflict resolution skills, to de-escalate these situations.

The flip side, of course, is that they will be putting themselves in some degree of harms way, but of folks really have a passion for these things, they are VERY welcome to form such a task force in cooperation with their local Law Enforcement agencies.

I know my agency would welcome such oncall mental health professionals with with open arms, and would gladly assist in creating a mental health crisis task force.

 

[MJS]

You may have some points.........and here's the kicker. There is nothing, in the US anyway, that prevents individuals with 'expertise' in such matters, from starting a partnership with their local law enforcement agencies.

Develop policies and procedures, and approach protocol, and be on call for such mental health issues. They can respond, with police as backup, and make contact with the suicidal person, and attempt to use 'psychology', 'conversation' and other conflict resolution skills, to de-escalate these situations.

The flip side, of course, is that they will be putting themselves in some degree of harms way, but of folks really have a passion for these things, they are VERY welcome to form such a task force in cooperation with their local Law Enforcement agencies.

I know my agency would welcome such oncall mental health professionals with with open arms, and would gladly assist in creating a mental health crisis task force.

I'll gladly stand back and let a 'professional' deal with such a situation........they can yell for help when they have enough 'negotiating' and need my assistance. I don't have a problem with that one little bit.

We have a mobil crisis team where I work. They call the PD any time they're going to eval. someone who is a risk, ie: violent history, etc. There are times, when PD is dealing with a mentally ill person and they'll request us to call the MC team, who will respond and do an eval. usually only if the person is a client of theirs.

Personally, I think they're pretty useless, because it seems to me that they go out to eval. the same people all the time, for the same issues. Are they really giving these patients any help?

 

[Tez3]

Okay, taking it from the article it doesn't say she was suicidal as in she said she was going to kill herself, she said she wanted to die, different things if you listen to it. The two things are different as in her intent. She may have had no intention of killing herself but was wanting death to come quickly from her illness. This indicates her frame of mind. Remember she threatened the police with the knife, she didn't try to cut herself with it. You may think it's nit picking but looking at things like this indicate frame of mind and how you deal with the situation. It may not have been a suicide call at all so the actions may have been inappropriate. Expressing a wish to die when in pain and seriously ill isn't an indication of suicidal tendancies. People have assumed that she was intent on killing herself rather than waiting to die, perhaps she was suidical but what if she wasn't but was wishing that the dying process came sooner rather than later.It's also being assumed that she must be mentally ill because she had expressed a wish to die, for many, that they want to die when in pain and seriously ill is a sign of commonsense and assisted suicides are legal in a few countries which a lot of people will travel to so that they as they say can die with dignity. There was no dignity for this lady was there?

Moving her and taking her from her home aren't the same thing then? taking her fro her home would involve moving her, no?

As I said I'm taking what I see from the same facts as you guys but you see a suicidal mentally ill woman who got violent with the police while I see a woman who could want to end her life at home with dignity but her relative panicked and involved the police in something that has left them looking bad. Put yourself in the woman's position instead of the police or medics, you are sseriously ill, dying probably as you are 87, in pain and don't want to have your life prolonged in pain, you express the wish to die and then police and whoever turns up in your home, threatening to move you so having nothing much to lose you take a knife and threaten them. Dying at home is a very dear wish of many sick and/or old people.

I didn't say what I think was the truth I'm trying to point out that from the 'facts' printed you see something that I don't and I did say I was taking what was printed for my post, as everyone else has. As printed by the media, it was a disaster and could have been avoided.
The truth? who knows. I was doing what everyone else was doing, talking from the 'facts' printed up but because it's a different view from everyone else oh gosh, I'm getting the criticism lol. But there you go, keeps everyone amused.