How Much Force Is Too Much?

[MJS]

As of late, there've been a number of use of force issues with various PDs around the world. As a reference, I'll point to 2 recent issues, however, the focus of this thread does not have to be on just these 2 cases, but use of force in general.

The first case, in which an LAPD officer shot and killed a knife wielding immigrant.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39081654/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/


The second case happend in the city in which I work. A 17yr old high school student stole food during lunch, then became violent and aggressive with school staff and well as the 2 SRO's. The end result was that the student was hit with the taser.
http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2010/09/04/news/doc4c8166f21b7fd263524867.txt

There are a number of follow-up stories on this incident, that can be found doing a search on the papers website. I'm not going to link all of them.

While I agree that there are probably times in which powers are abused, too much force is used, etc., however, I think that many times, people are too quick to judge the situation, and instead of offering up alternative suggestions to OC, a taser, etc., they armchair QB the situation and offer up no other options. Of course, my feeling on that is...until you walk in the shoes of a LEO or Correction officer, dont be so quick to judge.

I often laugh when I hear people say, "Oh yeah look at this...2 cops couldn't handle a 16yo kid!" Well, easier said than done. I've seen some pretty big kids. The same is often said about adults. The COs in CT dont carry any tools to use. The superivsors have OC and cuffs, but the regular COs....nothing but empty hands.

In closing I'd like to say this: Obviously topics of this nature tend to be heated. Lets try to keep the rules of not only the forum, but also of this particular section, in mind, while posting.

 

[Eazy]

Well thats a hard one to answer for me but i'll give you my point of view.
Pepper spray, stun guns, rubber bullets fired from guns that put people straight on their backs. Before a gun i think.

The police are dealing with new animals every day as new drugs come out like PCP and Crystal meth, Ive seen those idiots in public walking around and they look uncontrolable.

Its not a task ide like to deal with.
Stun guns are a worry and probably the most over used thing ive hered about. When an old lady got done for a driving offence and a cop gave it to here because she was not co-operating, well if she had a heart condition its a concern i think.

When it comes to drugs and raids, I think those special forces should be used. even for smaller raids, its good practice for bigger raids.
It would be a good deterant.

Now we have a rappid culture of knives comming into play and possable people carrying them, That always has to be in ones mind.

I guess there's no choice but to follow the US and even when a car gets pulled over its get out of the car lay down spread your arms out flat.

Unfortunatly even the people doing the right thing are going to have the incovenience of this type of event, But we have to have civil protection.

Reading about the cop that just got murdered is an eye opener and raises new issues.
It looks like a whole new approach needs to be looked at.
No one deserves to loose their live from some dopped up wanka.

I watch on TV how those car hoons in Sydney and Melbourne just treat cops like they got one over them.
The public must feel really safe in those areas.

I think more focus needs to be put there, and maybe less on trivial matters where alot of energy seems to be put maybe because its easier to deal with i don't know.
Do the Police use those rubber bullet guns?

What about stun bombs or shock bombs or flash bombs Ive seen the SAS use in a building breach.

Do Club and general security have use pepper spray?
This may on many occasions save the police a lot of effort by having the perpetrator/s subdued before they arrive and less violence not to mention hospital beds wasted on thugs.

 

[Eazy]

Heres one reason for my comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJrbCtavN7A&feature=more_related
Unfortunatly these monsters are amoungst us.

Now the other end of the deal.

And how do you deal with an idiot like this. Id hate to be a cop.

 

[Eazy]

Another view of this question is>
A cop in Kingscross Sydney, Peppersray, Tazer, Firearm cocked and loaded,Handcuffs, Hes got to be a brass knuckle cop Particuarly at night.
This guy has to have his guard up all the time he can't take chances.
Hes another reason i don't like citys, Simply because not only the idiots in the city and thugs but the cops are hardend and I expect to be treated as one of the regular idiots if you go there because of my looks being tattooed and just the general biker look. And i totaly understand why this is the case, I except it so i don't go to citys much only for Medical Reasons. Ha and the lock ups full every Saterday night.

Country Small town cop may just need his firearm incase of an ijured Animal or a dangerous stray from out of town looking for refuge, to breach a suspected drug house and pepperspray to control a possable pub brawl at worst but with good community relations wont be nessisary very often.
Handcuffs And a pen.
This Guy is more into the community and has alot added to the roll of dealing with locals and being a good piece keeper.
This guy has more direct interaction with the locals knows them by name, His approach can generally be more relaxed.
very few times if at all is someone in his lock up.

So the two cops have the same roll but are deffenety on different Stress levels,

Brings another question is a stressed Sydney Kingscross cop ok with a gun and stable?.
This is a concern and needs addressing i think city cops need better support in terms of councling. Now ive been into a city police station at night to get info, and the crap they put up with is unreal. Societys worst is in there spitting, yelling, screaming ,cursing, Kicking and drunk, Drugged or otherwise.
Yep it must be hard for some to ask for as there would be that tuff cop stigma going on in the workplace so it should be periodic and payed for Just so they can go home as humans.
Id say every three months if more is required and may well be then so be it on indivdual advice from the councler.
In a normal job you don't expect violence if there is they call it workplace bulling or Harassment and has serious consiquences for anyone involved.
Its been well documented the impacts the alone can have on ones self esteam and well being well City cops get that all the time from the public Because of that it can be taken home or passed on to the next person who they just pull up.
This seriously needs addressing to see a councler with pay min every 3 months.
Workstress is serious and can cost taxpayers alot more if we don't push these services.
Workstress can lead to suicide Ideation, sleep Insomnia, Family break ups, Alcohole Abuse or drug abuse. Our city cops are human and do a good service from what ive seen. They protect us well they need protection form the remifications of the types they deal with on a regular bassis.

 

[jks9199]

Use of force is never pretty, and it's always easy to know what to do in hindsight.

On top of that -- lots of people don't understand violence at all, though they know all about it from tv and movies. The idea of facing down someone with a knife without at least having lethal force available is idiocy in the real world. Tasers are great tools, and in some rare circumstances might be appropriate due to the combination of factors. I even know of one barricade situation that was successfully resolved with a Taser... but it was a perfect combination where there was PLENTY of lethal backup, and the guy with the Taser could get into a position of very good advantage to hit the guy. If the weapon the bad guy has can do serious bodily harm (broken bones, serious cuts, maiming, or death) -- lethal force is the proper response. No matter what the armchair quarterbacks think.

Like I said; the biggest problem is that the armchair quarterbacks looking at the situation from their comfy chairs seldom really understand the nature of a violent encounter. They don't understand the effects on the body of that sort of stress, they don't understand what people do -- or how differently a person can act from the person they "know." They've seen too many episodes of Walker or whatever and they figure that the bad guy will go down with one punch (you'd think that seeing boxing or MMA would counter this...), that locks and holds work every time, or that the Taser is an instant, magic KO. (Hint... it's only effective when it's cycling... and that's assuming a good hit in the first place!) They think pepper spray works wonders... when the truth is that pepper works best on other cops!

 

[Eazy]

I agree good statement and i know what you mean by the spray.
We also have to consider the trend of suicide by cop becoming a fad, Puts cops in a between a rock and a hard place.

 

[punisher73]

There is alot of misconceptions about violence and police tactics. I have actually had people ask me, "Isn't there like a pressure point that you can just push and they will pass out?" "Why do you have to strike them?"

As to 2 officers vs. 1 16 yr old? Our job is to subdue them without injury. It is easier to do and avoid even more bad publicity if you have to resort to striking in a one on one situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If he draws a knife, you shoot him center mass. If he is unarmed and charges you, you pepper spray him if you can, give him five from the sky otherwise. If he tackles you and takes you to the ground, you draw your weapon and shoot him. You never lose control of your primary weapon, and you never let yourself lose consciousness. All other considerations are secondary.

I don't care what the public thinks. Fight a cop, get dead. End of story.

 

[MJS]

Nice replies everyone, especially from Punisher, JKS, and Bill. The sad thing is, is that nowadays, there is zero respect for the law and the people whos job it is, to uphold it. Everyone today, thinks that all the cops are a bunch of power hungry jerks. Sure, every dept has at least one, but that doesnt mean that all of them are bad apples.

As for the use of force...well, I too, get tired of the "Cant you just shoot them in the leg? Why do you have to kill them?" Hmm...ok, and to those people I say, "Ok, lets trade. I'll give someone a knife, tell them to run at you full bore, intent on cutting your heart out, and you try to shoot them in the leg before they get to you." Please.

We didnt have tasers, OC, or a baton when I was in Corrections. The LTs and Capts had OC and cuffs, but the regular COs...empty hand baby. There is a list of things that you can do, situation depending. Of course, that always looks bad, because it involves striking.

As for the school issue that I linked....I heard that this kid was very large...over 6' tall, and 200+lbs. Neither of the cops involved are anywhere near that size. Could they have talked him down? Tried to verbally defuse it? Sure, but just like I've said before, that may not work. What if this kid didn't want to leave or talk? If people are bitching this bad about the taser, imagine what they'd have been saying, if the cops started hitting the kid, in an effort to apply a lock. What about OC? Sure, ok...and now you run the risk of having it effect others in the immediate area as well. I heard that this kid was physically fighting with the cops, so IMO, the taser was justified.

Just 2 cases of people talking out of their ***. Its easy to armchair QB what the cops do, but until you walk in their shoes or the shoes of a CO, until you have to deal with the dirt bags that they face daily, my opinion is STFU!!!! What I find very amusing, is that all the talkers ***** about what the cops do, yet they offer no constructive suggestions. Then again, when they do, the suggestions are the most outrageous ones that I've ever heard. Lets see.....shoot them in the leg, talk to them, use a tranquilizer gun, like they do for animals, touch a pressure point. Umm...yeah, sure, in the 'perfect' world that may work.

 

[Archangel M]

People are clueless. Some people just plain don't like cops and will paint every situation as brutality. Some cops shouldn't have been hired.

It's a mish-mash. But at the bottom of it all its monday morning QB'ing. While people like to think they know what REALLY using force is like, they have no practical experience at it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

People are clueless. Some people just plain don't like cops and will paint every situation as brutality. Some cops shouldn't have been hired.

It's a mish-mash. But at the bottom of it all its monday morning QB'ing. While people like to think they know what REALLY using force is like, they have no practical experience at it.

That about says it all.......you can always tell the folks with an axe to grind when they try to paint a situation where a man tries to stab an officer with a knife, after attacking private citizens with it, and gets shot, as police brutality.

It's so obviously a righteous shoot that anyone who argues otherwise paints themselves immediately as an anti-cop hack.