RobinTKD
Blue Belt
If i held back against most of the girls in my class i'd get my **** kicked. I just didn't want it to look as if i enjoy fighting/beating women.
Girls of TKD
- Thread starter SPX
- Start date
- Status
If i held back against most of the girls in my class i'd get my **** kicked. I just didn't want it to look as if i enjoy fighting/beating women.
I see. That's interesting.
In the US, cute can have that meaning, but it's also just another word for attractive. It's quite common for a woman to call a grown man cute.
I've always been a champion of female fighters. I think they deserve the same recognition and pay as their male counterparts. I wish the UFC would go ahead and bring them into the fold, but as they long as they keep the Strikeforce doors open, at least women have a big stage they can work up to.
I actually met one of my ex-girlfriends in this very way. I'm not a very big guy and when I did judo there was this girl I would get matched up with because we were similar in size. It was quite a delight to have her in my guard and, after a few classes, we started dating.
I would think most martial arts women would bash you for calling them a "girl". I could see how women would find the title of this thread offensive.
Something has gone wrong in society when girls and guys can no longer just be what they are.
What one guy is, another is not. What one girl is, another is not. There is great diversity on this board--and within Taekwondo. It behooves all of us to consider that many perspectives and experiences exist given our various combinations of age, gender, culture, language, art, length of practice, and so on. I'm sure that no harm or offense was intended in this thread. Still, one doesn't need to intend offense or harm to cause offense or harm. When we don't understand the reaction of another person, it can be considered an invitation to learn something more. Perhaps it's a reaction unique to that person or perhaps it's a reaction that many would have whether they would post it here or not. The perspective of a non-dominant group (in this context, women martial artists) is especially important to understand by a dominant group (in this case, men martial artists). I know many women who find it offensive to be called "girl" once they are adults, especially because men are much more frequently called "man," rather than "boy," when they are adults. To be a woman in a male-dominated field of any kind is to regularly struggle to be taken seriously. I would hazard to guess that many women martial artists would find terms like "cute" and "girl" when applied to grown women who are serious practitioners of Taekwondo (the women martial artists in the video clips) in a context that focuses on Taekwondo (Martial Talk) to be, at best, out of place and, at worst, offensive. In a completely different context (say, two friends chatting privately at a social gathering), reactions might be completely different. And, as many have pointed out already, there are variations in meanings of language across the globe, even if it's supposedly the same language. American English is not UK English is not Australian English....
Anyone wanting to better understand the perspective, needs, and experience of women Taekwondo practitioners would learn a great deal by reading "Coaching Women in the Martial Arts" by Jennifer Lawler http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-Wome...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325291532&sr=1-2. This book can be a real eye opener about how student and instructor attitudes, speech, and behavior can create an environment of harmful gender bias in the dojang and how changes can be made to make the dojang free of gender bias. Clearly, the gender issues being discussed here on Martial Talk are not unique to this thread.
Hoping for mutual understanding,
Cynthia
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
My thought when watching the videos was that all three are real athletes who train hard, and I never get tired of seeing that. I don't care about the style differences--none of those women are part-timers. I respect that. I think this is an interesting thread because most of the replies have been from guys. I'd be happy for any of the girls and women I train with to see these videos because they show that females can be skilled, successful, and fierce. Any of you guys who wouldn't want your daughter to be those things? BTW, that's not a gender-based comment either; my goals for my son are the same as they are for the girls and women I help train and coach. Great job ladies!
Where I train, "Fight like a girl" is a positive comment. It's nice to see that these women do that.
Carl
Where I train, "Fight like a girl" is a positive comment. It's nice to see that these women do that.
Carl
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think there's some merit to what lifespantkd brings up. But I also want to point out that this is a pretty mixed up hash we have going on. It's not even as simple as gender issues. We have some cultural misunderstandings, some gender misunderstandings, some ethnic misunderstandings and some just flat out over sensitivity going on.
Personally, while I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity, I also cringe at the idea of becoming so paralyzed by a desire to avoid insulting anyone that we lose our ability to communicate at all, exchanging nothing but empty platitudes lest we offend. In other words, the offendee bears some of the onus of helping get to a point of understanding.
If I call someone cute and they don't like it, of course I'd want for them to tell me. but if they made a big deal out of it such as has happened in this thread, they'd be (IMO) the ones in the wrong.
Personally, while I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity, I also cringe at the idea of becoming so paralyzed by a desire to avoid insulting anyone that we lose our ability to communicate at all, exchanging nothing but empty platitudes lest we offend. In other words, the offendee bears some of the onus of helping get to a point of understanding.
If I call someone cute and they don't like it, of course I'd want for them to tell me. but if they made a big deal out of it such as has happened in this thread, they'd be (IMO) the ones in the wrong.
I agree on all counts. I can actually be kind of a sensitive person so I never want to offend anyone, but at the same time I expect people to be generally cool about things and not be too uptight.
I posted the vids as a complement, not a criticism. And they involve girls. Who are cute.
Who wouldn't be interested in that?
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Im pretty sure there wasnt much seriousness involved, Tez.
Also, that makes Her a Role Model for Perseverance. It doesnt make Her a Role Model for Womens TKD overall, unless its to be a Personal Role Model.
Seems a bit extreme, since the Male involved may not be aware of this particular quirk of terminology of theirs.
Well Trained ITF TKD is a very interesting machination - But so is Well Trained KKW TKD.
The Sparring, however, I think could be more even between them. *Nods
I stand by My Conclusion, Im afraid. We shall have to agree to disagree.
Down > Up > Down = Theoretically more Power at the expense of everything else.
And this is the issue with poorly Trained ITF - Well Trained ITF TKD is more like Kickboxing + Hosinsul but with Lower Contact Sparring.
Theyd hold back for Skill. Not Rank
If it ever becomes a problem for You, push the pace. If They dont push back, Theyre doing it over Gender.
Interesting reasoning You have there
You people, causing Me to type lots of stuff.
I hate to pollute my thread with a video of a dude, but this guy had a lot to do with getting me interested in ITF TKD.
What's your assessment?
LOL
Last edited by a moderator:
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Righteo:
Bad timing on Reverse Turning Kick. It should be taught as a finisher, or an opportunity. He just up and used it.
Good Axe Kicking.
Hes a decent Puncher. His flurries are good and Parallel. Tis a good way to assess ITF Punching - It should ALWAYS be Parallel unless its going for a specific target.
His Aggression is good, but He tends to back off after attacking. This isnt necessarily bad, unless Youre up against someone like Me who loves to Jam>Charge.
He flows through Combinations excellently. Even if I can fault some of the Combos themselves, He works them together too well for it to matter.
He overreacts to Feints. But Ill attribute that to Him not wanting to let the other guy get a Point.
He chains together too many lead leg Kicks. This tends to reduce Power a bit too much for My taste.
He has damn good Reaction Times, and handles Jumping Strikes well.
He tends to lean out of Side Kicks too far. This may be His personal preference, but it hinders getting the Hip over.
Bleh. Im only 60 seconds in.
He has a bit too much of a Hook Kick Fetish.
He turns His Hips very nicely.
120 seconds.
Enough!
Consensus: Hes Successful because Hes able to seamlessly chain together Attacks on the fly, even if those Attacks can be slightly unsuitable. He has good Punching and Reflexes, and a good Axe Kick.
I wouldnt call Him a Role Model, but Hes a shining Example of many things.
Now if He used more appropriate Strikes...
Last edited by a moderator:
As has been said many times, the written word gives no indication of the writer so when he uses the word cute or girl, there is no knowing exactly how he means it, if he always uses those words and whether he's being patronising or not, we have to take it at face value, that's not being over sensitive. I'm sure it bemuses men that when they call a woman a girl she can be miffed about it, now if say 'Look boy' to a grown man that sounds like a threat doesn't it? If it helps, when you get to a certain age or point in your life being a woman is a badge of honour so being called a girl is failing to recognise that and is patronising.
I would suggest that Sarah Stevenson with her holding a world title etc is probably very good at what she does so yes I would say she's a role model for those who aspire to be Olympic TKDists.
I would suggest that Sarah Stevenson with her holding a world title etc is probably very good at what she does so yes I would say she's a role model for those who aspire to be Olympic TKDists.
Were you in the UK or in the States at the time? people pick up words from others, on another forum we were amused to see an American using the word 'gutted' recently.
Cute is a diminutive, used for kittens, babies and suchlike, if I called a guy over 30 cute it would be either sarcastically or in it's proper meaning, it's shortened from 'acute' meaning sharp as in sharp practice or a sharp businessmen.
My connection with TKD is that often train at a friends TKD club because he has no female senior belts yet so wants the girls to train with a female black belt.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
To you. Perhaps to brits in general. Not typically to most americans. Certainly, as has been explained several times, not to those in this thread.
Your brand of tolerance is very intolerant. Several Americans have explained to you that the word connotes different things here. I apologized and I will certainly use the word with brits more carefully in the ifuture. But jesus, tez. Pull the stick out of your butt for a minute and let it go.
From what ive read, you have a nasty habit of presuming the worst of Americans and consistently failing to offer us the benefit of the doubt. At the same time, you will unfailingly criticize us for being intolerant. If you don't consider Americans to be poorly educated, lazy, rude, or stupid, you might consider changing your posting style just a little because that's exactly the impression I get from you: an overarching air of superiority.
From mma to tma to amateur sports to healthcare and politics to education to anything else. Frankly, it's irritating and comes off as arrogant and my threshold for it is disappearing.
Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.
Well I don't suppose you've considered that this is a worldwide site with people from many countries on it and that it often comes across as arrogant that everything American is the ideal the rest of us have to aspire to? Our MMA isn't goods enough for you, our gun laws are wrong, our government is too socialist, we have the wrong sort of healthcare oh the list is endless of the things wrong with the UK. Recently Europe was dismissed in terms of being important in MMA terms, sales are going down in America so that's all that matters despite the fact that in 50 countries in Europe sales are up?
i don't suppose eithr that you are reading my posts judgin me by what you are thinking rather than what I'm actually saying, you are seeing things in my posts that aren't there, you don't like my posting style you think they touch a nerve with you but you are so so wrong, perhaps it's an inferiority complex. Just because I try to point out not necessarily to you that in MMA America isn't the last word that many many other countries have MMA? No what I get back from you and others is 'oh MMA is American, it's the UFC, it's the best' well bollocks, it's rich and its flashy, it's show business and the best of it's type but don't try to constantly ram it down our throats. You've been told on here, by Americans, the exact same as I've said many times, do you have a go at them, no, but me? Me, you think it's fine to have a go at. and you make it about nationalism. I try to explain what things are like here, point out our differences but you take it as a criticism rather than an exchange of cultural views, you see it as you're right, everyone else can go to hell. If you constistently misread my posts then the best thing you can do is ignore them. Interestingly another Brit said what I said but you don't appear to be attacking that poster?
The tone of this thread, whether you are British, American or Norwegian is that female fighters are 'cute girls' not martial artists but 'cute girls'. That's patronising in anyone's language.
Folks,
Lets return to the topic of the thread please. I assume the topic is to discuss female TKDists. Lets try to keep the 'cute', 'hot' and comments of that nature out of the thread please. Furthermore, this forum is open to anyone, regardless of where you're from, so lets drop the England vs. American stuff as well please.
Lets return to the topic of the thread please. I assume the topic is to discuss female TKDists. Lets try to keep the 'cute', 'hot' and comments of that nature out of the thread please. Furthermore, this forum is open to anyone, regardless of where you're from, so lets drop the England vs. American stuff as well please.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
And has it occurred to you that America is in the world?
Has it occurred to you that the admonishment you're so quick to use when ballen paints with a broad brush applies equally to you? Honestly, it's the blind spot you have towards America that I take issue with. It's the double standard you apply.
I'm pretty darned American, but I like everything I know about your BJJ/MMA scene over there. I correspond regularly with guys who train and/or run BJJ schools in the UK and would LOVE to go over there to meet them in person. I think your healthcare system, warts and all, is WAY better than our own here and I'd support a single payer system without hesitation. But you don't see that.
I've read nothing on this site to suggest that anyone believes your MMA or martial arts in general are inferior in any way.
If I am, I will gladly admit it. But I believe that it's telling that you aren't disputing any assertion I've made. Instead, you put it back on me. But the truth is, I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong. I'm wrong frequently and will gladly admit so publicly.
Are you seriously telling me that I'm not bothered by your posts? Huh. How would you react if I told you that you weren't actually bothered by my use of the term "cute?" You THINK you're bothered, but you really aren't. Doesn't make much sense. Does it?
Perhaps. And perhaps that was a thinly veiled personal insult.
Not just because of this. In fact, not because of this at all. I'm talking about a pattern of behavior that spans all of the forums. A bigotry toward Americans that leeches into every thread.
If several people consistently misread your posts, perhaps, just maybe, you can take a moment to look at how YOU post. Maybe?
The tone of this thread, to me... until you started brandishing your anti-American baton... was that some TKD Martial Artists are cute girls. And has been explained to you several times, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that no one meant any of this in a pejorative manner. And I and others have, even after explaining this, acknowledged that we'd be more sensitive in the future. But you won't let it go. It's just another opportunity to bash us. And as I said before, my threshold for it is getting lower all the time.
Ah, but I think the last 3ish minutes are the best!
Thanks for your assessment. I'll go back and watch it again with all of that in mind.
No one said that there isn't MMA outside of America or that there isn't quality MMA outside of America. Besides, the UFC may be run by an American company, but it's truly an international organization. Events have been held on 6 continents and more countries than I can remember. There are fighters from all over the world on the roster. And right now there are 3 Brazilian champs, 3 Americans, and a Canadian.
It's all in how you say it. Instead of sitting down to have a civil conversation, you go on the attack. I make one small, innocent comment and you immediately come back with a snarky reply. In every thread I've posted in, you have gone out of your way to single out the things that I've said that you don't like, while never replying to anything I've said with something positive to say. You've certainly never gone out of your way to say, "Oh, I agree" or "That's a good point." But if you see an opportunity to bear your fangs and try to cause trouble, you take it.
That's the TONE of the thread? And yet, in the first two replies there's one joking comment about a fighter being cute amongst paragraphs of technique assessment/critique and general praise.
And for the record, I don't see a problem with thinking that a female is attractive and saying so. Plenty of female martial artists, like Michelle Waterson, Miesha Tate, Cynthia Rothrock, Gina Carano and Kyra Gracie have been more than happy to show off what they got, so if they don't have a problem with it, then I definitely don't.
- Status
