General Choi Invented Tae Kwon Do

[dowan50]

I have recently been working on sorting and refiling paper work from the last 16 years of teaching in this particular region and I cam across large collections of research and articles from a Grand Master who invited me to his personal private library to copy as much material as I could in about 5 hours. This amounted to about 40 pounds of paper and many reams of paper. The main focus was on Korean, Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese arts both modern, post modern and historical styles methods and theories. I collected this material in 1996 with much of it being written from 1946, 1950's, 60's 70's and a larger portion from 1980's and 90's.

As I separated material by categories some for my library and others to be studied again. As I did this it became interesting how the opinions stated as fact on different subjects over 20 years ago would be regarded now?

I came across an interesting article interview with General Choi Hong Hi in 1995. Being a life long student of Tae Kwon Do since the early 70's based in WTF and KKW I had only been exposed to one position and party line given me so reading his actual words on the record I found interesting.

To paraphrase just a few key points his opinion was that he invented modern Tae kwon do over a 9 year period from 1946 to 1955 with over 3,200 fundamental moves related to combative techniques. His opinion was that his original Taekwondo was the same as the Judo invented by Kano Jigoro. WTF he stated was teaching basically Karate and had taken his original name by force of political power phony tae kwon do advertising, bribery and other means. He goes on to much stronger language why WTF in no good and ITF is better. Regardless of where the actual facts may divide those issues I respect his passion to write 15 volumes with over 30,000 pictures and his life long experience.

 

[terryl965]

Here we go again, let the name calling begin but please keep it to a low rumble....:erg:

 

[Indie12]

ITF was Gen Choi's original concept, WTF was actually created in the 1960's-1970's officially to promote of the Sport of Tae Kwon Do... But yes, that is correct Gen Choi's Tae Kwon Do as we know it, isn't what he had invisioned!!

 

[Indie12]

I have recently been working on sorting and refiling paper work from the last 16 years of teaching in this particular region and I cam across large collections of research and articles from a Grand Master who invited me to his personal private library to copy as much material as I could in about 5 hours. This amounted to about 40 pounds of paper and many reams of paper. The main focus was on Korean, Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese arts both modern, post modern and historical styles methods and theories. I collected this material in 1996 with much of it being written from 1946, 1950's, 60's 70's and a larger portion from 1980's and 90's.

Indie: Wow, I'd be interested in seeing those someday, hopefully!

As I separated material by categories some for my library and others to be studied again. As I did this it became interesting how the opinions stated as fact on different subjects over 20 years ago would be regarded now?

Indie: Where did these articles come from?

I came across an interesting article interview with General Choi Hong Hi in 1995. Being a life long student of Tae Kwon Do since the early 70's based in WTF and KKW I had only been exposed to one position and party line given me so reading his actual words on the record I found interesting.

Indie: That's unfortunately the downpart of Tae Kwon Do, they only expose you to one position, only if your lucky, you'll find out the other half!!

To paraphrase just a few key points his opinion was that he invented modern Tae kwon do over a 9 year period from 1946 to 1955 with over 3,200 fundamental moves related to combative techniques. His opinion was that his original Taekwondo was the same as the Judo invented by Kano Jigoro. WTF he stated was teaching basically Karate and had taken his original name by force of political power phony tae kwon do advertising, bribery and other means. He goes on to much stronger language why WTF in no good and ITF is better. Regardless of where the actual facts may divide those issues I respect his passion to write 15 volumes with over 30,000 pictures and his life long experience.

Indie: Tae Kwon Do, the name was officially coined in 1950. Originally Choi's goal was to unify the Korean Arts, by combining different Korean Forms, including adding Japanese, and Chinese systems into it. Unfortunately during this period, Korea was either under Japaneses occupation and/or recovering from the War, so the direct lineage to Tae Kwon Do cannot be accurately placed, (maybe the notes you have say otherwise?)

Indie: WTF was established officially in 1973. It was established by the South Korean government as a means of offically making it a sport and official Korean Martial Art. ITF was established in 1966 by Gen Choi himself. Unfortunately ITF is now based out of Canada, and reason being because the Korean government did not want ITF influence onto it's so called Tae Kwon Do. And yes, there were governmental influence on the development of WTF.

Indie: 15 Volumes with over 30,000 pictures? I would love to come see that someday!!

Indie: I too was a WTF Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I started in 89. Then I switched to ITF... Now I'm just independent... I agree I respect the positions, but the actual facts (according to both the papers you have and what's taught in WTF/ITF schools are different and up for debate!)

Good Post!! :asian:

 

[Earl Weiss]

There are volumes on this "Debate" . It will never be resolved.
Before you can resolve a debate on who "invented" "XXX".

First you would have to define exactly what you mean by:

A. "Invent" ; and,

B. "Tae Kwon Do". "Taekwon-Do", or "Taekwon-Do"

Since there will likely never be agreement among the relative perspectives about how terms in the question "Who invented TKD", are defined, there will never be a reasoneable discussion about the question, let alone reaching an answer or conclusion.

Defining the terms in the question differently leads to different conclusions. (FWIW I Like the Judo analogy.)

 

[chrispillertkd]

I came across an interesting article interview with General Choi Hong Hi in 1995. Being a life long student of Tae Kwon Do since the early 70's based in WTF and KKW I had only been exposed to one position and party line given me so reading his actual words on the record I found interesting.

To paraphrase just a few key points his opinion was that he invented modern Tae kwon do over a 9 year period from 1946 to 1955 with over 3,200 fundamental moves related to combative techniques. His opinion was that his original Taekwondo was the same as the Judo invented by Kano Jigoro.

Just to clarify the bolded statement a bit, what he said in the interview was: "If they have to call [it] tae kwon do, then they have to learn exactly what I designed. Kano Jigoro invented and designed techniques that we call judo. Tae Kwon Do is the same. If they use the name, they should practice as designed by General Choi, founder of tae kwon do."

Pax,

Chris

 

[dowan50]

Indie: 15 Volumes with over 30,000 pictures? I would love to come see that someday!!

Good Post!! :asian:

General Choi stated that it took him 12 years of very intensive work to write the 15 volumes. I do like his opinions on breathing and on hand techniques especially the breathing and Ki Flow since I am a believer in doing Qigong.

 

[dowan50]

Just to clarify the bolded statement a bit, what he said in the interview was: "If they have to call [it] tae kwon do, then they have to learn exactly what I designed. Kano Jigoro invented and designed techniques that we call judo. Tae Kwon Do is the same. If they use the name, they should practice as designed by General Choi, founder of tae kwon do."

Pax,

Chris

Exactly that is word for word what was said mine was a pitiful attempt to paraphrase with out encroaching on copy write issues. My second point is how not related to all research but when it comes to politics or opinions they change over a 20 year period and even in some case if still true it would not be politically correct to say them?

His opinion that WTF Taekwondo was only Sport and not a Korean traditional Martial art I found interesting and not that far off from some of the Kwan founders not wanting their brand of Korean MA to be in danger of being changed or watered down by joining or unifying.

 

[puunui]

Here we go again, let the name calling begin but please keep it to a low rumble....:erg:

We already discussed this numerous times.

 

[golfermatt]

Exactly that is word for word what was said mine was a pitiful attempt to paraphrase with out encroaching on copy write issues. My second point is how not related to all research but when it comes to politics or opinions they change over a 20 year period and even in some case if still true it would not be politically correct to say them?

His opinion that WTF Taekwondo was only Sport and not a Korean traditional Martial art I found interesting and not that far off from some of the Kwan founders not wanting their brand of Korean MA to be in danger of being changed or watered down by joining or unifying.

To be accurate, WTF is just a sport. They are the governing body for TKD competition, that is what they claim to be. If you are referring to Kukkiwon TKD, that is another story. The Kukkiwon stems from the original KTA, which Choi and the other major Kwon members founded to unify Korean Martial Arts. Gen Choi is one of the most if not the most influential figures in the founding of all forms of TKD. But it should be noted there is a lot of ego and bad blood between many parties. As for the generalizations: XXX invented this, XXX is better than XXX,.... Not much to accomplish there.

 

[Master Dan]

To be accurate, WTF is just a sport. They are the governing body for TKD competition, that is what they claim to be. If you are referring to Kukkiwon TKD, that is another story. The Kukkiwon stems from the original KTA, which Choi and the other major Kwon members founded to unify Korean Martial Arts. Gen Choi is one of the most if not the most influential figures in the founding of all forms of TKD. But it should be noted there is a lot of ego and bad blood between many parties. As for the generalizations: XXX invented this, XXX is better than XXX,.... Not much to accomplish there.

Agreed this is already known but it was his frank comments to a live interview compared to his published works that struck me. He did not mention KKW but he did dig USTU, ATA and others as having little or no value comments like only having two kicks ect. As for comments from others having to post we have already talked about this then why bother to post? It was about the personality of the interview and the issue of how impressions and education including the advancement of technique change over time. Founders of Kwans or styles have pride for a reason because they see value in what they are able to give others willing to listen and wish not have that choice limited or taken from them.

 

[punisher73]

I know the book has been talked about before, but "The Killing Art" by Gillis is a good book to try and see some of the historical changes and the political changes that TKD has gone through.

If nothing else reading the book will let you see that nothing is at it seems when it comes to the history and founding of TKD and who were the loudest voices that got heard in the beginning.

 

[Archtkd]

Again??? This is not Karatemom USA, is it? I think David Askinas invented Taekwondo

I have recently been working on sorting and refiling paper work from the last 16 years of teaching in this particular region and I cam across large collections of research and articles from a Grand Master who invited me to his personal private library to copy as much material as I could in about 5 hours. This amounted to about 40 pounds of paper and many reams of paper. The main focus was on Korean, Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese arts both modern, post modern and historical styles methods and theories. I collected this material in 1996 with much of it being written from 1946, 1950's, 60's 70's and a larger portion from 1980's and 90's.

As I separated material by categories some for my library and others to be studied again. As I did this it became interesting how the opinions stated as fact on different subjects over 20 years ago would be regarded now?

I came across an interesting article interview with General Choi Hong Hi in 1995. Being a life long student of Tae Kwon Do since the early 70's based in WTF and KKW I had only been exposed to one position and party line given me so reading his actual words on the record I found interesting.

To paraphrase just a few key points his opinion was that he invented modern Tae kwon do over a 9 year period from 1946 to 1955 with over 3,200 fundamental moves related to combative techniques. His opinion was that his original Taekwondo was the same as the Judo invented by Kano Jigoro. WTF he stated was teaching basically Karate and had taken his original name by force of political power phony tae kwon do advertising, bribery and other means. He goes on to much stronger language why WTF in no good and ITF is better. Regardless of where the actual facts may divide those issues I respect his passion to write 15 volumes with over 30,000 pictures and his life long experience.

 

[Miles]

I think David Askinas invented Taekwondo

Now THAT's funny from the ironical standpoint that he will likely kill the sport of TKD within the next 2 yrs.

 

[puunui]

Founders of Kwans or styles have pride for a reason because they see value in what they are able to give others willing to listen and wish not have that choice limited or taken from them.

Huh? What are you trying to say here? I don't understand what you are trying to say. How do you know why "Founders of Kwans or styles" have pride or what they see value in? How many "Founders of Kwans or styles" have you spoken to?

 

[terryl965]

Now THAT's funny from the ironical standpoint that he will likely kill the sport of TKD within the next 2 yrs.

Yea it is a shame what is going on with the USAT

 

[Archtkd]

Now THAT's funny from the ironical standpoint that he will likely kill the sport of TKD within the next 2 yrs.

A little chuckle is a good thing, sometimes, maybe always.

 

[Balrog]

Just to clarify the bolded statement a bit, what he said in the interview was: "If they have to call [it] tae kwon do, then they have to learn exactly what I designed. Kano Jigoro invented and designed techniques that we call judo. Tae Kwon Do is the same. If they use the name, they should practice as designed by General Choi, founder of tae kwon do."

Well, kinda sorta yes and no (how's that for a definitive answer?).

For lack of a better analogy, let's take Taekwondo and compare it to Christianity. Within TKD, we have WTF, ITF, ATA, AMAI, TA, etc., etc. They're all Taekwondo; the difference is in the forms and the philosopy, but they are still all Taekwondo. It's the same way: you have Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Episcopalians, etc., etc. But they are all Christianity, they just differ in the forms and the philosophy (I think the Baptists and the Lutherans do full-contact, but I'm not sure :lol: ).

 

[puunui]

For lack of a better analogy, let's take Taekwondo and compare it to Christianity. Within TKD, we have WTF, ITF, ATA, AMAI, TA, etc., etc. They're all Taekwondo; the difference is in the forms and the philosopy, but they are still all Taekwondo. It's the same way: you have Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Episcopalians, etc., etc. But they are all Christianity, they just differ in the forms and the philosophy (I think the Baptists and the Lutherans do full-contact, but I'm not sure :lol: ).

In that case, then General Choi is basically claiming that he is Jesus.

The thing about it is, the whole point about the name Taekwondo is that it was the closest approximation in chinese hanmoon characters for the name Taekkyon. the original search was for the characters for Taekkyon and not finding any, they came up with Taekwon. And when the name was being selected, there was never any issue about who created Taekkyon, because no one knows who created it. It was only later that General Choi started claiming he was the founder.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In that case, then General Choi is basically claiming that he is Jesus.

Well, no. Gen. Choi was claiming to be the equivalent of Jigoro Kano.

Balrog brought up the analogy with Christianity.

Pax,

Chris