Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
I would say that while some arts are probably better suited for SD than others, I'd also say a lot of it comes down to how things are trained. Nothing says that you have to be chained to the methods found only in your school. In other words, go cross train.
I would agree but now we are really talking about martial artists seeking to improve their skill set, not the average person wanting to learn 'self defence'. No one that I have seen wanting self defence lessons would even think of cross training.


For the scenario you describe above, I would focus on training in something that is simple, easy to learn, doesn't require tons of practice to be able to recall it. Krav Maga comes to mind. Yes, I know...some KM schools are a joke, but that can be said of any art. My point is: That is something that's simple and to the point.
Even Krav has its problems. I have found that people learning Krav don't have the same devotion to training that you find with students from more traditional styles. Many want everything in the first two weeks then they're off. It is frustrating from a teaching point of view.

Bottom line is...there really isn't any quick fix.
And therein is the total truth.


This is why I'm leery of some women's SD courses, because if the students think that after a few 8hr sessons, that they're going to be 100% competent, they're going to be in for a rude awakening. Plus, some of these courses, don't focus on key things, ie: scenario training, adrenal stress training, and actually having an inst. pad up, and attack the student, in a fashion that they'd get attacked on the street, so the student can actually apply the things that she's learned. Having some experience on the ground is also a plus. Some basic BJJ techs, can be a huge plus.
I would agree but you do here occasionally where someone (normally female) has survived an attack and had given credit to the SD training. In those cases it is normally something as simple as a knee to the groin.

Of course, good old fashioned common sense is important. We've talked about awareness countless times, no sense in rehashing all the points here, but to touch on a few, things such as: being aware of your surroundings, taking precautions around your home, avoiding bad areas/establishments, etc.
They are the fundamental pillars of self defence. Rehashing them is good if it gets the message across.

Like I said, nothing is ever going to be 100%. But I think that if you apply some of the things that have been mentioned already in this thread, your odds of success, just went up.
Spot on!
 

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,166
Reaction score
558
The fundamental pillars of self defense are whatever works.
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA

Thanks for posting the video Brian. Wonderful drill. I am a big believer in letting the tool (and the attacker) do the work. Thanks for posting it.
 

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,166
Reaction score
558
So that's your answer to someone asking you to teach them SD?

If somebody asked me to teach them SD, if they wanted something effective they could learn quickly which is usually what people look for in SD classes I would tell them to find somebody who specializes in SD training.
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
Planning as a pillar concept.

I get a lot of my sd tips from backpacker guides. They are generally the ones running around most exposed in the silliest environments. So if you are backpacking in say brazil. You don't go out alone at night. You stay away from certain areas. Lean the risks and just not be there to defend.

If I am going to physical a guy. I make sure he is on his own and that I have numbers. That innocent people are not going to get caught up and that the environment suits the purpose that I put it to.

As self defence planning is important to create as many advantages as you can to avoid drama. Or deal with it should it be unavoidable.

Thanks drop bear. In the military there is a quick saying, the '6' P's. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. It is great to have plan and using back packer guides is a brilliant method of gathering intelligence.

If I can paraphrase your pillar in my own words to see if I have it. Gather intelligence prior to needing it. Avoid dangerous/unsafe areas and situations. Do not get physical with groups of attackers. Do not get physical with an individual attacker unless the environment suits and innocent people are protected. Create and take advantage of as many advantages as possible and if possible avoid drama. How did I do? Do I understand the pillar you were articulating?

Thanks for posting
Brian King
 

Drose427

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
927
Reaction score
251
Location
USA
Thanks for posting Drose 427.
I like the analogy of tying awareness to a skill that many have, driving. Of course, driving is a learned skill that takes much coaching, practice and finally experience. Being a professional driver, one of the things that we do is to be aware of the unusual. We are looking for the unusual, the breaks in normalcy, and disruptions in patterns without getting hyperaware of every vehicle and circumstance. Drose427 - do you have a methodology for harnessing the brains ability to be aware to bringing that awareness to consciousness prior to self-defense circumstances?

If I understand your post- in my own words- A person needs to harness their instinctive and neurological wiring to become aware of self-defense needs before that need arises. If the need turns to physical it is best to have a striking and grappling experience depending on personal preferences, abilities, and limitations. Finally, if a person trains the use of weapons they should have those tools within reach. Am I getting close to understanding your thoughts on this?

Thanks for posting
Regards
Brian King

I break it down as learning to drive (when you would mumble under breathe everything to watch, darted your eyes all over, etc. lol) and tell them to simply try that exact method and mindset, but instead of watching for redlights, look for people.

Instead of watching following distance, keep track of how close/far you are from bystanders.

Just like with driving, it takes time to get the hang of. Its not that its hard, we just arent used to it.

I absolutely hate this example because fight science had some laughable inaacuracies, but one episode they did a drill where a person walked through this course filled with potential threats and had to keep an eye out for all of them.

A "Crucible" like that every now and then is a great way to measure how well you're balancing all that out without putting yourself in serious danger.

and Your understand of my thoughts are dead on bud!
 

Hanshi

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
229
Reaction score
170
Location
Virginia
I never teach students to use a "style" or even a martial art. I teach them to use approaches that don't require years to develop the skill. I make sure they understand that complicated moves and fine motor skills will leave them so use basic concepts and principles. When attacked, no one is in the "proper" mindset and they WILL be at a disadvantage. However, 95% of what I do recommend to them does come from martial arts.

Specifically, weapons first. Always be armed even if it is nothing more than a ballpoint pen, I tell them; but a knife or gun is best. Since most do not carry guns or knives the emphasis is on "environmental weapons", items to be naturally found on or around them. I, myself carry knives, rarely a gun; and since I need a cane to walk that becomes my primary weapon.

Secondly, I teach them that there is no such thing as self defense. Reason being that defense is a response to a prior advantage directed at them; you can't punch backing up, so to speak. What I prepare them to do is at the moment it appears an attack is forthcoming YOU become the aggressor. I think most people know when something bad is about to come down so it makes no sense to politely give the thug first dibs. In such situations you must EXPLODE into a violent and loud attack with everything and anything you know or have with you. Any attacker should not be left in a condition to regain his feet for at least a good while. The results of your initial action, they are instructed, will determine what your next move will be; be it to quickly leave the area or stay around. Always, I tell them, always call the police asap. Often the police don't like the idea of people protecting themselves but this fascist attitude is their problem, not yours.

Basically these are my pillars of self protection. There's more, of course, but this is the basic outline.
 

Drose427

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
927
Reaction score
251
Location
USA
What would you suggest? A kick to the groin? Punching? Knife hand attacks? Given that size and strength difference, it's doubtful that her standing strikes would have been very effective.



Put that untrained guy in your typical TKD or Karate McDojo (where soccer moms like this unfortunate woman would no doubt have taken MA lessons) and put him up against the head instructor. My money would be on the street thug.

Why would you assume shed be going to a Mcdojo? XD

Og yeah, because anything other than BJJ or MT is a "Mcdojo" XD
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Why would you assume shed be going to a Mcdojo? XD

Because (unfortunately) those are the type of MA schools women flock towards. The schools full of nonsense like 10 year old black belts, and multiple board breaking.

Og yeah, because anything other than BJJ or MT is a "Mcdojo" XD

You said that, not me.:muted:
 

Drose427

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
927
Reaction score
251
Location
USA
Tameshiwari , done properly, isn't nonsense.It isn't nonsense at all....


Well to be fair, many places use demo stuff.

A lot of places dont, I've never even seen what demo stuff looks like.

All our stuff comes from the local hardware store,

Pine (hopefully not too green cause those Mothers dont like ot Break XD)
Cement slabs/cinderblocks
etc.

No idea where the BB's get the big ol' Ice Blocks
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
Style doesn't matter.......

Technique doesn't matter.....

We've all heard of the "martial artist, " "karate instructor, " "kung fu master," that froze when confronted with sudden violence, and failed to defend themselves.....

Freezing matters-it shouldn't be an option, but it is.....

What really matters-the real "pillar of self defense" is-for the umpteenth time-mindset. Most people are disinclined to use violence against their fellow men, even when confronted with malicious and violent intent. It's not that it's not within their nature-it's simply that they have not ever had a reason to go there, and usually aren't trained to: the will to kill, the inclination perpetrate violence on a human being, is something that doesn't arise from motivation-the violent actions and intent of others-for everyone. Mindset-the will to use violence, and the ability to channel one's emotions into that violence, are of paramount importance: the retraining of the "flinch reflex," the ability to manage adrenalization, these are far more important than grapplling, or striking,or cutting with a knife, or hitting with a stick, or firing a gun.

The primary "pillar" of self-defense training, then, is training that develops the ability to control and channel fear, and the will and ability to act violently, and immediately......the secondary pillar is the one we should depend upon, and that is situational awareness....the tertiary one would fall under strategy, and consists primarily of not only being aware, but avoiding situations (or locales) with violent potential......

Thanks Elder999 for posting and sharing of your experience. I was hoping that you would.
I can appreciate the order of the three pillars you described above. Is there a methodology/drill that you have found that helps an average Jane to develop the mindset that violence is a tool that can be used? What is the primary way that you have observed success in retraining the flinch reflex?

Although I can not add any clarity or depth to your pillars I hope you do not mind if I repeat them back in my own words to see if I have the gist of it.

Self-defense should have in addition to the methodology to develop situational awareness, the ability to harness that awareness and to make it common sense and natural to avoid those places and situations that if not avoided might result in a self-defense situation. That self-defense begins with study of the self. Learning to understand how fear affects our bodies systems, learning to understand and recognize when we are succumbing to the fight, flight, or freeze response and how to escape that response so as to be able to do whatever whichever action might be needed to survive the immediate encounter. Is that close?

Thanks again for posting sir.
Regards
Brian King
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
Neither, these are simple math operations, math formulas require variables. :)

Wouldn't the variables then give you context? And simple is relative...never have been good at any math and have to work very hard at it. To be truthful, had not thought about the difference between a math operation and a math formula, heck, never heard the difference described before. Thanks for taking the time to post the correction.

Regards
Brian King
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
One thing that I teach is making every witness, (if there are any) your witness. Meaning that your actions ie. hands up, verbal: I'm leaving, Stop, etc. show the people around that you are not the aggressor. This I believe is crucial for good personal protection skills. You want anyone around to testify that you were the victim and that the other person was attacking you. This if there is time before the attack can be done relatively quickly. If there are cctv just having your hands up and slight backing away can show that you were not the aggressor.

Thank you Brian. With proliferation of the cell phone video there is now a decent chance that 'monkey dance' violence will be recorded. Even random attacks (think knock out game) many that are into attacking random people also enjoy having their friends record the attack. Always good to identify yourself as the victim. This also goes for when calling 911. Hello police, I just shot and killed a man is different that Hello police, I was just violently attacked and was forced to shoot a man. We are located at and I am wearing ... Letting them know who the good guy is might not save a person from cuffing and possible roughly, it might save them from a shooting. In a lethal encounter all of our actions will be examined and criticized. The actions prior, during, and after a situation.

To paraphrase you post sir, the situation does not only involve you and the attacker, but, also involves any bystanders and witnesses (including any recording devices) and these people and devices will publicly and legally share a perception of the situation that could be either beneficial or detrimental to a persons potential criminal and or civil cases. Is that about right?

Thanks for your posting! Good stuff as usual.

Regards
Brian King
 
OP
Brian King

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
503
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
Actually Brian, I think that study is very relevant to this topic. I didn't comment earlier on training for SD because I was interested in others thoughts. The study you refer to, and again, I have only seen a summary, concluded that, even with additional martial art training, under high anxiety their performance was still diminished.



Now the reason I waited was the video made me stop and think about a time many years back when a guy in a full on rage attacked me and I didn't exactly freeze but went totally into all out defence mode. I saw the exact same response in this video. It is possibly the same as the Australian lady we were talking about in the other thread.

It is so easy to say "oh yes, but these martial arts wouldn't help but this one would be great and she had this opportunity etc." To me it is all BS I'm afraid. We are talking self defence here, not a lifetime of martial art training.

When someone is really attacked with intent by someone possibly high on drugs they will really be under extreme duress and most will be overwhelmed. Even the police in the study, under controlled circumstances, suffered a decrease in performance under extreme anxiety and these are guys exposed to violence regularly.

We are talking about Self Defence. By the time you are fighting, your basic self defence has failed and you are now in survival mode. Again coming back to the Australian girl. She was surprised but eventually was able to fight her way out of it. She was previously a champion junior fighter, she was a karate blackbelt and she had trained to escape from a similar scenario. Most people have nowhere near that level of experience, so to say the average person is going to apply a leg choke is absolute nonsense. That requires a lot of dedicated training and most people you instruct in self defence aren't prepared to devote that time.

I'll add some more later.

Thanks for coming back to the thread K-man. I agree that the study can have some relevance to the topic but without reading the actual study it is difficult to take it other than hmmm interesting. Not sure if they had the subjects wired or if it was a self evaluation. Anytime that a person is in a high anxiety state there will be some effect (just before, during and even after) The tidbit I gleaned from the summary was that even a limited number of hours and length of time of training, with a variety of martial arts and subjects, had a real beneficial and measurable effect. I thought that this was interesting.

Thanks again
Regards
Brian King
 

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,166
Reaction score
558
Thanks drop bear. In the military there is a quick saying, the '6' P's. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. It is great to have plan and using back packer guides is a brilliant method of gathering intelligence.
That is a good saying and prior planning I believe makes up a big part of what self defense is all about. However, you also have to be able to improvise. With self defense, and I would think in the military its like this too especially if you're going into war that its much like a game of Chess. To be good at Chess you have to have prior planning as planning and strategy is what Chess is all about, but what happens all too often, especially if you're opponent is a good opponent, is that they will do something to stop your plan. You might plan top gain a position on your opponent to give yourself an advantage and ultimately win, but your opponent might move his pieces to stop your plan in which case you have to come up with a new plan. That's why you've got to be flexible and able to change your plans at a moment's notice, as well as having good prior planning.
 

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,922
Reaction score
1,439
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
Thanks Elder999 for posting and sharing of your experience. I was hoping that you would.
I can appreciate the order of the three pillars you described above. Is there a methodology/drill that you have found that helps an average Jane to develop the mindset that violence is a tool that can be used? What is the primary way that you have observed success in retraining the flinch reflex?

A little busy now, but the short answer is that once they reach a certain level of training, I do my level best to scare the crap out of them on a regular basis. More to follow....
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,286
Reaction score
7,992
As far as physical self defence or fighting. A simple base set of techniques really are important. Ones you can apply scared surprised or concussed. Dumb mechanical, he punches I block stuff. Then layered on top the same sort of follow the rules concepts. Hands up,punch straight that sort of mess.

From that basic core you can then free your mind a bit and. Apply fighting concepts. Like using his momentum or adjusting his technique to compensate for his defence.

Then once that is handled you can start playing to a game. Using environment and improvising. Also doing cheeky stuff like say ringing the cops. Or working an escape plan.

So you are applying some automation and some creativity. And kind of switching between them.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,286
Reaction score
7,992
The hurty people mindset is different to the person. Some are trying to impress. Some are competitive,some fear loosing. It really is whatever gets you lover the line.

Trying to create a mindset is hard for self defence due to the speed in which you have to do it. I just use logical triggers then act then the mindset follows along.
 

Latest Discussions

Top