friggin Se Jong

[Twin Fist]

This pattern is chappin my butt

I generally use the Hee Il Cho books as a reference, but every video show it different from the books, and most of the videos are that sine wave garbage....

BLEAH!!!!!!


ok, i feel better now.

Seriously, i haate this form.

 

[StuartA]

Thats cos its a Gen. Choi form

 

[chrispillertkd]

Out of curiosity, what are the differences between how GM Hee Il Cho teaches Se-Jong and what you're seeing in most of the videos? I'm an ITFer so we do it like it's laid down in the Taekwon-Do encyclopedia (sine wave and all ).

Pax,

Chris

 

[StuartA]

Ahh! But which sine-wave Chris.. because the newer version doesnt feature in any of the good books!!! :angel:

Stuart

 

[Twin Fist]

ok,
(assume starting facing 12 on a clock and forgive my highly condensed writing)

turn to 9 and low block
turn to 3 and box block (high block/outward block combo, whatever you call it)
side kick to 12
step out to 9 and high block
step to 3 and chop
feet together facing 12
rt foot behind left to 12 and left hammer/rt open hand

now here is where it gets different.

in Hee Il Cho's book, he turns 180 degrees to 6 and rev punch out of a front stance

in every video i have seen, they turn 90 degrees to 3 and rev punch out of a front stance

and did i mention that i HATE sine wave?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Ahh! But which sine-wave Chris.. because the newer version doesnt feature in any of the good books!!! :angel:

Stuart

No, not in the books, but it was taught by the guy who wrote them. His son. His top students. A ton of other people who have a hell of a lot of experience.

But, yeah, if you just stick to the section of the book that wasn't updated then, yeah it's not in there

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

ok,
(assume starting facing 12 on a clock and forgive my highly condensed writing)

turn to 9 and low block
turn to 3 and box block (high block/outward block combo, whatever you call it)
side kick to 12
step out to 9 and high block
step to 3 and chop
feet together facing 12
rt foot behind left to 12 and left hammer/rt open hand

now here is where it gets different.

in Hee Il Cho's book, he turns 180 degrees to 6 and rev punch out of a front stance

in every video i have seen, they turn 90 degrees to 3 and rev punch out of a front stance

Odd, I have never seen it performed this way. What comes after this movement? Does he somehow get back to going towards 9 again while executing a high guarding block?

and did i mention that i HATE sine wave?

Heh, I like it. A lot of the videos on youtube show an overexaggeration of it which I dislike, but when performed correctly it helps to mobilize the body's mass to good effect.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

yeah chris, after you rev punch to 6, the rt foot comes back to the left foot, and you step out with the rt foot to 9 in a back stance with the closed fist sudo block/high gaurding block.

then shift to a rt front stance for the rt spear hand.

 

[exile]

No, not in the books, but it was taught by the guy who wrote them. His son. His top students. A ton of other people who have a hell of a lot of experience.

But, yeah, if you just stick to the section of the book that wasn't updated then, yeah it's not in there

Pax,

Chris

I don't have a horse in this race at all... but so far as sine wave is concerned, this post from Kacey, who knows whereof she speaks, makes for interesting reading...

 

[chrispillertkd]

Interesting. I have not seen Se-Jong done with that particular variation before, but then I've seen all sorts of variations thrown into the Chang-Hun tuls depending on when a particular instructor learned them or if they thought they had a better way of doing them.

Are you from GM Hee Il Cho's lineage, then? He had a video series on te ITF tuls, IIRC. Might want to get a hold of them, if so.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

nope, my lineage is Allen Steen, there hasnt been a Korean in it since Jhon Rhree

Interesting. I have not seen Se-Jong done with that particular variation before, but then I've seen all sorts of variations thrown into the Chang-Hun tuls depending on when a particular instructor learned them or if they thought they had a better way of doing them.

Are you from GM Hee Il Cho's lineage, then? He had a video series on te ITF tuls, IIRC. Might want to get a hold of them, if so.

Pax,

Chris

 

[searcher]

I have hated this form for quite a while. So much so, that I often pass it over when doing forms practice.

 

[StuartA]

No, not in the books, but it was taught by the guy who wrote them. His son. His top students. A ton of other people who have a hell of a lot of experience.

Weird that eh! Makes you almost think it was a political change, ordered from the top down (hence why all those you mention taught it)

Anyway, sorry for detracting from the thread.. Ill shut up now as I havnt learnt Se-Jong myself.

Stuart

 

[chrispillertkd]

Weird that eh! Makes you almost think it was a political change, ordered from the top down (hence why all those you mention taught it)

We've had this tired discussion before.

No one discounts that there could have been a political reason (i.e. the allegation that some have made that it was a way to separate what people were doing from what then-Master Park, Jung Tae taught in his IIC's) for emphasizing a part of sine wave that was, in fact, already present (i.e., relaxing of the knees before the upward motion). I would also point out, however, that if such an initial downwards dip is missing you seem to have a better chance ending up doing a saw-toothed wave rather than a sine wave.

I still don't really understand why you are so hung up on a change in technique that didn't get into the encyclopedia given that there are still several editorial errors in the books. But whatever floats the bee in your bonnet (to mix metaphors).

Your previous comment that the newer version of sine wave isn't in the encyclopedia is to a large degree irrelevant. Anyone who has been to an IIC or Master Class in the last 20 years has seen it. If you're serious about learning Taekwon-Do the way Gen. Choi taught it you'll go to where you can get that information.

A book is great to have for some things but if you look to that to the exclusion of what an instructor says, especially in MA's, you'll soon see the inherent limitations in such an approach. I'd much rather get on the floor and sweat with someone for several hours and get to see what he's doing and feel it myself and have him correct my mistakes than rely on a book as my final word. Books can be helpful but they have a serious draw back: they give you the same answer over and over again, regardless of the question you ask. It takes an instructor with a good background and teaching ability to adequately pass on what's being taught in the martial arts.

Pax,

Chris

 

[StuartA]

I would also point out, however, that if such an initial downwards dip is missing you seem to have a better chance ending up doing a saw-toothed wave rather than a sine wave.

Disagree with that, but thats another discussion

I still don't really understand why you are so hung up on a change in technique that didn't get into the encyclopedia given that there are still several editorial errors in the books.

Not hung up on.. hence the smiley by each post when I wrote about it here, but IT IS a major omission seeing as its the under-lyning pin and bedrock of how the ITF now teach their patterns, its not like a small typo or anything and to try to write it off as such just is non-sensical! And i ahve an issue with it because it was brought in as a political move and now tens of thousands of students around the word are preaching it as gosepl when 1) it has no more benefits than the original versions, less in fact 2) is too slow for any SD use at all 3) is still being taught to gullible students worldwide despite its clear errors because they have no choice but to accpet it (but again, a seperate discussion, sorry)

Your previous comment that the newer version of sine wave isn't in the encyclopedia is to a large degree irrelevant.

Very relevant IMO.. see above and below points!

Anyone who has been to an IIC or Master Class in the last 20 years has seen it.

So.. its so important that its been taught at IIc's for 20 years.. but has never found its way into numerous reprints and updates of the manuals during that 20 year period, despite other items being changed and updated!! Like I said.. its all weird and makes you wonder surely!

If you're serious about learning Taekwon-Do the way Gen. Choi taught it you'll go to where you can get that information.

That could be applied to getting things corrected in his books and legacy type stuff.. after all, it would only of meant 1 additional photo.. not exactly hard to do! After all, not evryone could afford to train with Gen Choi or go to IIC's etc. and his books were a way to spread his system on a much wider scale!

The good/bad points of books are seperate issue really.. as their are pro's and con's to them. However, bad points can be corrected in subsequent editions, that much is clear!

Now.. Se-Jong..

Stuart

 

[chrispillertkd]

I forgot how much fun it is to discuss things with you, Stuart I'll answer the last round of your comments and if you have a desire to continue this discuss feel free to PM me about it.

Disagree with that, but thats another discussion

The initial dip of the knees facilitates a more subtle motion which, in my experience, allows you to shift the body with less likelihood of forming a saw-toothed wave.

Not hung up on.. hence the smiley by each post when I wrote about it here, but IT IS a major omission seeing as its the under-lyning pin and bedrock of how the ITF now teach their patterns, its not like a small typo or anything and to try to write it off as such just is non-sensical!

I didn't say it was a small typo but the encyclopedia is a huge work. There are several editorial errors in it that continued through many editions (and new errors crop up with new editions!). This update could be another example of that. It's the danger of relying on printed material which I mentioned before. That's why continuing education under qualified instructors is necessary. I just attended a seminar with Master Wheatley last month. He went out of his way to point out the limitations of media in conveying information, especialy when dealing with technique. Books, DVD's, etc. are good resources but they are limited goods that can only supplement, not replace, qualified instructors.

And i ahve an issue with it because it was brought in as a political move and now tens of thousands of students around the word are preaching it as gosepl when 1) it has no more benefits than the original versions, less in fact 2) is too slow for any SD use at all 3) is still being taught to gullible students worldwide despite its clear errors because they have no choice but to accpet it (but again, a seperate discussion, sorry)

Your assertion here about politics is only partially true. When GM Park, Jung Tae left/got kicked out of the ITF the General made a concerted effort to emphasize the initial downward motion of sine wave. But others have pointed out that this relaxing of the knees was present before, albeit not as emphasized. It's part of the idea of keeping the body relaxed until the end of a movement.

As for your 3 assertions above: 1) This is debatable to say the least - personally I generate much more power with the initial dip than without it; 2) irrelevant because both forms of sine wave are primarily used as teaching devices to show students how to shift body mass in order to get maximum power from their techniques; any form of sine wave is going to be quite abbreviated when one is sparring sparring, training in self-defense, etc..

3) This last statement is, to put it frankly, absurd to say nothing of disrespectful. It's your attitude demonstrated here that makes me dislike posting in the same threads as you to say nothing of even answering your posts. You do some very good things for Taekwon-Do and then post stuff like this which just doesn't do yourself justice.

So.. its so important that its been taught at IIc's for 20 years.. but has never found its way into numerous reprints and updates of the manuals during that 20 year period, despite other items being changed and updated!! Like I said.. its all weird and makes you wonder surely!

As I said before, there are other editorial errors in the encyclopedia still. There are things that are not covered or only given cursory treatment in the encyclopedia. Your view of the book seems to be - from other posts on kidokwan - that it contains everything and this is simply not the case. It's a great guide, but not the final word. If you want some media treatment of sine wave covering the initial dip there are several official DVD's out there that do so. Heck, you've seen the video of Gen. Choi doing so. Despite this you still can't accept how things are.

That could be applied to getting things corrected in his books and legacy type stuff.. after all, it would only of meant 1 additional photo.. not exactly hard to do! After all, not evryone could afford to train with Gen Choi or go to IIC's etc. and his books were a way to spread his system on a much wider scale!

There's a big debate over who actually owns that stuff now. There have been DVD's produced such as Master Choi's Master Class DVD that shows sine wave with the initial downwards motion. Or you could simply go to a seminar given by, well, just about anyone in the ITF.

You're in the UK and are surrounded by great ITF people. Why not give GM Rhee or Master Nichols a call and get their input on this subject? I think that would be great for an article for the next issue of Totally Taekwon-Do.

The good/bad points of books are seperate issue really.. as their are pro's and con's to them. However, bad points can be corrected in subsequent editions, that much is clear!

No, this is exactly part of the issue because sometimes errors or changes are not, in fact, made in subsequent editions. I have edited several books over the years for people and found errors in all of them. I found errors in translations from the Latin of Aquinas that fundamentally changed the meaning of the passage it was in and that are still not corrected and that was years ago. Why? Who knows, maybe they had other things on their mind. Maybe they figured if you were a serious student of Aquinas you'd go read the Latin yourself or study with a person who is an acknowledged expert of Aquinas. That's academia for you and to a large extent that's Taekwon-Do for you.

Like I said, if you want to discuss anything else feel free to PM me.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have a book . It's all about the alphabet. All 22 letters. I am sure everyone should read it as a standard toward understanding.

Pay no attention to those who indicate I only studied the alphabet for a short time and there are really 26 letters.

If you are doing Gneral Choi's patterns and using publications by He Il Cho and Jhoon Rhee who wrote the complete pattern books containing 20 patterns, that is what you are doing. The CD ROMs produced by Gneral Choi are not neccessarily perfect exhibitions of the pattterns, but for most of the population, If you could emulate the performance exhibited you would have a pretty darn good performance.

Here's a video http://video.aol.com/video-detail/se-jong-tul/1641967667

 

[Earl Weiss]

Another good one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBYvCi4mAw&feature=related

Gives the opposite viewpoint as well.

 

[StuartA]

I forgot how much fun it is to discuss things with you, Stuart

I wont post further unless Twin Fist okay's further posts on the subject, as my original comment was made tongue in cheek and not really meant to spark another sine-wave debate.

3) This last statement is, to put it frankly, absurd to say nothing of disrespectful.

Apologies if it came across that way, that wasnt my intention, I simply meant that students have no choice but to do it if taught that way and part of certain orgs as its something that comes from the top down. "Gullilble" was a bad choice of words - sorry

Stuart

 

[Twin Fist]

Stuart, I just started this thread to vent about how much i hate this form. you guys can chat about anything you want to, i LOVE thread drift, in fact i cause it all the time, like this:

Earl,
thanks for the videos. I wont be doing my form like that since i think sine wave looks like a drunken, mentally challenged chimp doing martial arts. IMO, Sine Wave is retarded

it generates NO power that i can see

it defeats the purpose of forms which is learning to move SMOOTHLY

and most importantly, looks stupid.

I swear it is something Choi came up with to seperate his TKD from the rest of TKD after the rest of TKD gave him the heave ho....

see Stuart? I LIVE for thread drift.