Chang Hon forms questions

dancingalone

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While we're on the subject of not terribly useful moves, what about the W-shaped blocks in Toi Gye? I read somewhere they are to block two simultaneous jump side kicks to the head. Blocking multiple punches is more likely.

Yama uke could possibly be interpreted as an arm bar or as a variety of throwing motions, including the fireman's carriage from wrestling or judo.
 

terryl965

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??? You do the Tae Geuks, right?

I was doing the Chon Ji long before Tae Gueks. Before the Tae Gueks was also the palgwes, remember I have been doing this a longtime as well.

Beside we only do the Tae Gueks at USAT events, like AAU we do the Chon-ji sets because they score higher against the Tae Guek. All my boys learned the Chon-ji set first and then the Tae Gueks. Hell Michael my youngest prefers Gae Bek over Koryo anytime.
 

Earl Weiss

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I may be entirely wrong, but from my perspective I don't believe the bulk of General Choi's system is imparted strictly through the patterns. What about self defense or the fanciful kicks? They are taught outside of the pattern framework in stand alone drills are they not?

If so, then it's hardly an accurate claim to say the patterns in of themselves are the system.


Sorry, the pattern system is the Chang Hon Pattern system. It is entirely accurate to say the patterns are the Chang Hon system. Now, if you want to say Gneral Choi's system contains more than just the patterns, than that would be accurate as well.

You did pose an interesting question vis a vis "Bulk of the techniques." I don't have an answer as to what number or percentage of techniques in the system are not found in the patterns. Certainly there are some, but I would venture to say that few if any not found in the patterns are more than a variation of what is found in a pattern.

IMNSHO the biggest delineation of a system are the patterns.
 

Earl Weiss

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We've often joked with our Kyosanim about breaking your thumbs off if you really tried using a U-shaped block to block a staff.

While we're on the subject of not terribly useful moves, what about the W-shaped blocks in Toi Gye? I read somewhere they are to block two simultaneous jump side kicks to the head. Blocking multiple punches is more likely.

I am sorry, but the above shows that someone has not "read the book". The blocking surface of the U Shape block is the "Reverse Knifehand" although the shape of the hand does not resemble the reverse knifehand. It is often misunderstood to be the "U" or webbing between the thumb and index finger and that is a recipe for disaster. Knowing the proper surface menas the direction of th hand motion is more from side to side than from close in to away from the body serving as more of a deflection to the side. It is not specified as to why the thumbs are out but an analogy can be made from oher open versus closed hand applications where the text says this facilitates a grab.

While not stated having the thumbs out would continue deflection away from something coming toward you. Sorry, all the above is easier to show than describe.

Do San W shape block with outer forearm is designated to be a block with only one forearm, the one that is on the lead side when stepping. (There are other W Shape blocks meant for 2 defenses but they don't step the same way which makes a second or double block impractical)

Even so, still not in my 10 favorite practical things to do. But, if you ever catch Jackie Chan in Shanghai nights watch where he is tied to a railing and breaks it free. Or, icture an agrarian society where you carry stuff with a pole across your shoulders and are attacked.....
 
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bluewaveschool

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One of my instructors said the U shape block was supposed to be a staff block. Then he said that explanation was stupid. He proceeded to grab someone by the throat and groin using it.


Terry and Earl, the W shape blocks, cresent kicks or foot stomps?
 

dancingalone

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Sorry, the pattern system is the Chang Hon Pattern system. It is entirely accurate to say the patterns are the Chang Hon system. Now, if you want to say Gneral Choi's system contains more than just the patterns, than that would be accurate as well.

I can accept that is how you feel and I am certainly not out to change your mind since this is your style.

That said, I offer this thought for other people out there: what comprises a system exactly? Is it just the rote forms? If all you practice is the form itself, are you still doing Chang Hon or Shotokan or Silat or whatever else?

What about the supplementary drills which in the case of TKD IMO are actually the bulk of the fighting system itself such as the self-defense, one steps, sparring, and basics. While forms are a key part of TKD, they are not fully integrated into rest of the art. It's been mentioned a time or two to my recollection that General Choi brought in a Hapkido master to create the hoshinsul that (some, most, all?) in the ITF teach. Would this be necessary if the Chang Hon forms already served as the dictionary or guiding book for practical self-defense? My opinion is no, and that likewise would lead me to conclude that the practice of the forms themselves does not equal to learning all of the key parts of the Chang Hon system.

In contrast some other fighting systems are more integrated such that the 'promise kumite' and free flowing drills and pattern applications actually are tied in directly to the kata/hyung itself, so that you could make the argument that kata/hyung = the system. This is not meant to be a statement of which is better on a practical level. Good training is good training regardless of how 'neat' the organization of the pedagogy is.
 

dancingalone

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I was doing the Chon Ji long before Tae Gueks. Before the Tae Gueks was also the palgwes, remember I have been doing this a longtime as well.

Beside we only do the Tae Gueks at USAT events, like AAU we do the Chon-ji sets because they score higher against the Tae Guek. All my boys learned the Chon-ji set first and then the Tae Gueks. Hell Michael my youngest prefers Gae Bek over Koryo anytime.

Cool. I much prefer the Choi forms over the Tae Geuks myself. Do you do them according to the last directions General Choi left with sine wave and all?

I use the Chon-Ji pattern set in my TKD class, but I certainly don't teach or perform them in the fashion done by the ITFs today. Chon-Ji for example is executed with with a slant in hanmi similar to what is done in Shotokan or Shito-ryu karate with regard to Heian Shodan (Shoto) Pinan Nidan (Shito). So you see, I would be uncomfortable in saying I teach Chang Hon, since I obviously do not.
 
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bluewaveschool

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Well for me any variation from General Choi's way would be couinted against any tester in front of me.

As far as the 360 degree spin, I would never try and stop a blow by a staff doing that tech. maybe to avoid a attack to the lower body but that would be it.


This is what is going to hurt me, I think. One of my BB and I have been discussing going ahead and changing the forms, or waiting until we find someone who would consider testing us and joining their org and see what they say.
 

terryl965

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This is what is going to hurt me, I think. One of my BB and I have been discussing going ahead and changing the forms, or waiting until we find someone who would consider testing us and joining their org and see what they say.


All you can do is talk and explain your circumstances and hopefully the people you decide to join with will help you though everything. If I was to take you on we would work on everything to insure your training would be the very best that it coul;d be.
 

Earl Weiss

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One of my instructors said the U shape block was supposed to be a staff block. Then he said that explanation was stupid. He proceeded to grab someone by the throat and groin using it.


Terry and Earl, the W shape blocks, cresent kicks or foot stomps?

First we need to acknowledge that as far as applications for movements are used, they are not meant to be exhaustive in General Choi's books. When he would teach, often using the socratic method he would often go thru a scenario as to the purpose / application of a technique. He would then use the example where someone said something different than was in the book, and say "He doesn't care what the book says, how do we solve this problem?" The answer he was looking for was that so long as the suggested application seemed to have a practical application, then it was a good application irrespective of what the book showed as an example.

That being said and acknowledging that numerous practical applications may exist for the above, and that some may runn contrary to what is said in the text, I offer the following:

W. Shape Block - Outer forearm as in Toi Gye. Only the forearm in the lead is used. Other than the agrarian example carrying a pole across your shoulders, not one of my favorite applications. I like some alternate applications.

Stamping motion with W shape block is not intended to be a foot stomp. It is only to "Accentuate motion and facilitate power." As with other ways of moving it is but one more way to generate power in certain techniques.

Crescent kick is a kick with the reverse footsword (inside edge of the foot) used to interceppt an incoming attack. This can be extremely useful. One scenariowould be to use it to kick the hand holding a knife. Recently had a guy do it to me successfuly in a knife defense class.

I think sometimes techniques can be viewed as a mechanics toolbox. Having the right tool makes the job go easier. You can use a wrench to pound on something and it may work, but a hammer works better.

You may only use 20% of the tools 80% of the time. Some you may only need 1% of the time. But, when that 1% arises it sure makes the job easier if you have the right tool.
 

dancingalone

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First we need to acknowledge that as far as applications for movements are used, they are not meant to be exhaustive in General Choi's books. When he would teach, often using the socratic method he would often go thru a scenario as to the purpose / application of a technique. He would then use the example where someone said something different than was in the book, and say "He doesn't care what the book says, how do we solve this problem?" The answer he was looking for was that so long as the suggested application seemed to have a practical application, then it was a good application irrespective of what the book showed as an example.

I generally agree although you and I have differences about the efficacy of the crescent kick knife defense.

My primary complaint with form applications is that they should make sense even if they are 1) basic or 2) it should be understood that they are not exhaustive. In other words, shed ourselves of the ones like jumping 360 degrees to avoid a blow from a staff. There are ample basic explanations that are far more credible.
 

Earl Weiss

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That said, I offer this thought for other people out there: what comprises a system exactly? Is it just the rote forms? If all you practice is the form itself, are you still doing Chang Hon or Shotokan or Silat or whatever else?

quote]

I think the question is phrased with a faulty premise, at least as applied to the Chang Hon system if all you practice a "rote forms."
(by rote, from memory, without thought of the meaning; in a mechanical way: to learn a language by rote. - Dictionary.com)

Patterns are made up of fundamental movements. You must first teach / learn the fundamental movements - specifications, parameters and application before learning the pattern/ Although not listed as #1 in the training secrets of TKD Gneral Choi would teach that knowing the purpose and application is the most important training secret.

The pattern volumes preface each pattern with new moves for that pattern with examples of the applications.

General Choi makes the analogy that the fundamental moves are the alphabet and patterns are the words or tactics. All the more fodder for those who like to link several moves to determine an alternate application.

Fundamental moves and patterns are 2 of the 5 elements of the Cycle of TKD, with the other 3 being sparring which includes all types 3,2,1, semi Free. model, Free, Self Defense, and Dallyon.
All the pre arranged sparrings use the same techniques mostly fopund in the patterns. Self defense has grappling techniques not found in patterns , and Free sparring has fundamental techniques highly modified from fundamental techniques.

So, Free sparring, grappling self defense, and Dallyon have little distinguishing characteristics as opposed to the fundamental techniques and how they are arranged in patterns.
 

dancingalone

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All the pre arranged sparrings use the same techniques mostly fopund in the patterns. Self defense has grappling techniques not found in patterns , and Free sparring has fundamental techniques highly modified from fundamental techniques.

So, Free sparring, grappling self defense, and Dallyon have little distinguishing characteristics as opposed to the fundamental techniques and how they are arranged in patterns.

The text I highlighted seems inconsistent with your contention in the final paragraph. Systems which have a high level of integration among its training components should have grappling or close range techniques specifically codified in their solo as well as dual pattern practice.

Okinawan karate has two man sets which is meant to explain the base level of what each kata means. As you progress deeper into the system, more and more close range fighting methods are exposed either formally through more sets or on a case by case basis where the teacher will show a possible application directly. It is understood that the kata does contain all of the system, so long as your teacher knows them and he is willing to teach them to you.
 

Earl Weiss

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. Systems which have a high level of integration among its training components should have grappling or close range techniques specifically codified in their solo as well as dual pattern practice.

.

There is no "Dual Pattern Practice" in the Chang Hon system. There are certainly 2 person exercises in the form of step sparring. There are examples in the text, but no set of prescribed practice vis a vis certain attacks and defenses by rank, although certin types of sparring are specified by rank.
 

Earl Weiss

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Originally Posted by Earl Weiss

All the pre arranged sparrings use the same techniques mostly fopund in the patterns. Self defense has grappling techniques not found in patterns , and Free sparring has fundamental techniques highly modified from fundamental techniques.

So, Free sparring, grappling self defense, and Dallyon have little distinguishing characteristics as opposed to the fundamental techniques and how they are arranged in patterns


The text I highlighted seems inconsistent with your contention in the final paragraph. .

I don't understand your point.

I will concede that alternate application afficianodos, of which I am one, can certainly find grappling applications in the patterns. Free sparring is sport, so techniques are modified and even banned.
 

dancingalone

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I'm going back to the item of contention of whether the Chang Hon forms = the ITF system. Do you prefer to reserve the Blue Cottage name to refer strictly to the patterns themselves rather than the entire body of training/knowledge as set out by General Choi? If so, that might be the source of my confusion with your initial posts on the thread.
 
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bluewaveschool

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How about this - Is ITF a mashing together of the 9 original kwans using Chang Hon forms, or is ITF Oh Do Kwan, Choi's school?
 

Earl Weiss

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I'm going back to the item of contention of whether the Chang Hon forms = the ITF system. Do you prefer to reserve the Blue Cottage name to refer strictly to the patterns themselves rather than the entire body of training/knowledge as set out by General Choi? If so, that might be the source of my confusion with your initial posts on the thread.


Perhaps this will be clear. Chang Hon refers to the pattern system developed by General Choi (With input and help from others.)

ITF is an organization. It has adopted a system set out to a large extent by General Choi. See, the simplest questions do not have the simplest answers.

For instance, the ITF uses a certain rule set for sparring competitions. I do not believe this rule set is contained anywhere in General Choi's works. As set forth above, General Cho'is system has elements beside the Chang Hon pattern system, however the bulk of the distibguishing characteristic which make up General Choi's system is the pattern system.
 

dancingalone

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Ah. That explains why you said earlier that practice of the patterns is practice of Chang Hon. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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