Chang Hon forms questions

RTKDCMB

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Dan Gun, the only version I have ever known has a low section then a high section block on the first move only the pattern has 24 movements, adding 3 more low section blocks would bring the total to 27.

Hwa Rang - I was taught to punch straight and only 1 elbow with the other arm just coming back to the hip. The pattern started from the C stance with both hands crossed over in knife hands.

The 360 jump can be for either a leg attack with a staff or a double sweep with the legs. The pattern as a whole does not necessarily represent an entire attack sequence it can represent a series of smaller attack sequences strung together to form the pattern. The U-shaped block is more of a snatch the staff out of the hands of the attacker kind of thing. The 360 jump spin may represent the start of the next sub-sequence where you swing your front leg out of the way and then see the second leg sweep, say a spinning heel sweep, and jump off the standing leg. Because your first leg is turning away from your attacker landing straight down may cause you to land side on so you continue your momentum by spinning around and landing in a knife hand guarding block in a left back stance. You are not spinning around in mid air to see what the other guys are up to as you should already be aware of them with your peripheral vision.

I hope this answers your questions.
 

RTKDCMB

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Just one point, kicking a knife out of someones hand is never a good idea, it is a good way to get your foot sliced open, especially on the inside edge of the foot where there is a lot of meat and blood vescles. Kicking with the outside edge of the foot is a bit safer because it is all skin and bones but still highly dangerous. Kicking a blunt object out of his hand with a crescent kick is good though. I have always used the stamping motion as a foot stomp (toes or instep) if they are punching you with their foot close enough to you you might as well stomp on it.
 

RobinTKD

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This is a good thread necro! There are a lot of differences between how I've been taught the patterns on how the 'british standard' supposedly is. The TAGB is considered the biggest ITF org in the UK, and Dave Ellis has made hundreds of changes to the patterns (some are unrecognisable to me) seemingly on a whim. Having met GM Ki Ha Rhee though, he assured me that the movements I had been taught were correct.
 

Earl Weiss

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>>Dan Gun, the only version I have ever known has a low section then a high section block on the first move only the pattern has 24 movements, adding 3 more low section blocks would bring the total to 27.<<<

>>>Hwa Rang - I was taught to punch straight and only 1 elbow with the other arm just coming back to the hip. The pattern started from the C stance with both hands crossed over in knife hands.<<

>>>The 360 jump can be for either a leg attack with a staff or a double sweep with the legs. <<

I hope this answers your questions.
Not sure why this post appears in this thread, but as far as questions go: Dan Gun has 21 moves not 24. Do San has 24.The name of the ready stance for Hwa Rang is "Close ready stance C". There is no 360 degree jump in Hwa Rang. It appears in Choong Moo. You do not land in a left back stance, you land in a right fixed stance. Last time I checked the peripheral vision of most humans did not go much if at all past 180 degrees. Blocks and attacks are properly referred to as High, Middle, Low and the term section which denotes a range rather than specific level is not used unless you are working off the 1965 book. Any questions?
 

RTKDCMB

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With scissors the blades are on the inside so it is not so bad unless they are open. Scissors ususlly do not cut as efficiently as a knife.
 

RTKDCMB

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It was a bit distracted when I wrote 24, which is To San I meant 21. I know its a closed stance, in our class we usually just say C stance. I did not say that the 360 jump appears in Wha Rang I was answering the question he had in his last paragraph. Unless you do a different version of Choong Moo you do land in a left back stance because the next move is in a left forward stance upset spear finger thrust. You can not see behind you but you can see someone moving out of your field of vision and follow them. Section refers to the section of the body, you obviously have a different interpretation which is fine. I do not work from any book only by what I was taught by one of the 12 original masters of Tae Kwon Do. We used to call it a high section block but we now call it a raising block, I used the term high section block because it may be a more familiar term to others
 

Earl Weiss

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>>Unless you do a different version of Choong Moo you do land in a left back stance because the next move is in a left forward stance upset spear finger thrust. <<>>>>Section refers to the section of the body, you obviously have a different interpretation which is fine.<<< I do not work from any book only by what I was taught by one of the 12 original masters of Tae Kwon Do. We used to call it a high section block but we now call it a raising block, I used the term high section block because it may be a more familiar term to others

Actualy I don't do a version of Choong Moo, I do Choong Moo although admittedly imperfectly, in fact I see I made an error. #19 Jump and Spin.... and form a Left L stance. (Not Fixed stance as I erroneously wrote, that is the previous stance.)

You are correct, "section" refers to a section of the body. High = Shoulders and above, Middle = Shoulders to umbilicus, Low = Below umbilicus. Attacking and blocking levels as stipulated for patterns do not have a range or section they are very specific. . Generaly with exceptions High = Eye, Middle = Shoulder, and Low = Umbilicus.

Based upon your history, I can see how your terminolgy (back Stance and "Section") conforms to the 1965 edition of General Choi's book. The terminolgy was refined beginning wit the 1972 book. I don't have "A different Interpretation" I have the most current and correct interpretation.

You refer to one of the 12 original Masters. Who is that person?
 

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Checked out the Rhee TKD site. reminded me of the days in the early 1970's when we were affiliated with Han Cha Kyo and did the non contact sparring. Do you happen to know what Kwan or group Master CC Rhee was with before he was with the Chang Hon system? Could not find anything on the web. Lots of times some of the pioneers did / do things that can be traced to habits from their early training. For instance, when I hosted GM Nam Tae Hi, he still used Japanese names for some techniques.
 

RTKDCMB

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Checked out the Rhee TKD site. reminded me of the days in the early 1970's when we were affiliated with Han Cha Kyo and did the non contact sparring. Do you happen to know what Kwan or group Master CC Rhee was with before he was with the Chang Hon system? Could not find anything on the web. Lots of times some of the pioneers did / do things that can be traced to habits from their early training. For instance, when I hosted GM Nam Tae Hi, he still used Japanese names for some techniques.

I wouldn't have a clue what Kwan he was with but we were briefly associated with the ITF at one stage. Grand Master Chong Yoon Rhee once trained under GM Nam Tae Hi in Vietnam before coming to Australia.
 

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I do not work from any book only by what I was taught by one of the 12 original masters of Tae Kwon Do. We used to call it a high section block but we now call it a raising block, I used the term high section block because it may be a more familiar term to others

I wouldn't have a clue what Kwan he was with but we were briefly associated with the ITF at one stage. Grand Master Chong Yoon Rhee once trained under GM Nam Tae Hi in Vietnam before coming to Australia.

Call me crazy, but these two statements seem contradictory. How could one of the "12 original masters" train under someone who was a 2nd Dan when the unification efforts started and Taekwondo was born?

What do you mean by "12 original masters"? Personally, I'd think the "original masters" were the heads of the various Kwans that formed the KTA. And that wouldn't be 12, unless you add in those who joined in the second round of recruitments (by which time, some of the originals had left...).

Or are you speaking of the first 12 people to attain the rank of Master in the ITF?
 

Earl Weiss

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Call me crazy, but these two statements seem contradictory. How could one of the "12 original masters" train under someone who was a 2nd Dan when the unification efforts started and Taekwondo was born?

What do you mean by "12 original masters"? Personally, I'd think the "original masters" were the heads of the various Kwans that formed the KTA. And that wouldn't be 12, unless you add in those who joined in the second round of recruitments (by which time, some of the originals had left...).

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_masters_of_taekwondo
Original masters of taekwondo is a group of twelve South Korean martial art masters assembled by the Korea Taekwon-Do Association (KTA) in the early 1960s to promote the newly-established art of taekwondo.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP] In alphabetical order following Korean naming conventions, they are: Choi Chang Keun, Choi Kwang Jo, Han Cha Kyo, Kim Jong Chan, Kim Kwang Il, Kong Young Il, Park Jong Soo, Park Jung Tae, Park Sun Jae, Rhee Chong Chul, Rhee Chong Hyup, and Rhee Ki Ha.[SUP][

It seems this label was used by the KTA. So if you disagree with it the quarrel is with that group:) Further, noteably missing from the group are Nam Tae Hi and General Choi. They are not really missing though because if you read on (use the link) that group was under the leadership of Choi Hong Hi and Nam Tae Hi. [/SUP]
 

Dirty Dog

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See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_masters_of_taekwondo
Original masters of taekwondo is a group of twelve South Korean martial art masters assembled by the Korea Taekwon-Do Association (KTA) in the early 1960s to promote the newly-established art of taekwondo.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP] In alphabetical order following Korean naming conventions, they are: Choi Chang Keun, Choi Kwang Jo, Han Cha Kyo, Kim Jong Chan, Kim Kwang Il, Kong Young Il, Park Jong Soo, Park Jung Tae, Park Sun Jae, Rhee Chong Chul, Rhee Chong Hyup, and Rhee Ki Ha.[SUP][

It seems this label was used by the KTA. So if you disagree with it the quarrel is with that group:) Further, noteably missing from the group are Nam Tae Hi and General Choi. They are not really missing though because if you read on (use the link) that group was under the leadership of Choi Hong Hi and Nam Tae Hi. [/SUP]

No disagrement, just confusion. So it really has nothing to do with being "original", it's just another one of those invented titles. Seems as if the title might more accurately be "the first 12 people promoted to Master by other people who already had various ranks in various arts including but not limited to their newly self-group appointed ranks in the newly created art of taekwondo" but that sure would take a long time to type over and over.


P.S. Why were we whispering? :)
 

Earl Weiss

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No disagrement, just confusion. So it really has nothing to do with being "original", it's just another one of those invented titles. Seems as if the title might more accurately be "the first 12 people promoted to Master by other people who already had various ranks in various arts including but not limited to their newly self-group appointed ranks in the newly created art of taekwondo" but that sure would take a long time to type over and over.


P.S. Why were we whispering? :)

The whisper was a function of the copy and paste inadvertently changing the font.

Definition issues of "Original" pale in comparison to definition issues of "TKD"

You or anyone else are free to quible with the posters or quoted sources or add to the information.

Readers can determine which if any position they feel more comfortable with.
 

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