For those of you who want to learn how to fight outside of sport:

[GreenieMeanie]

Skills—MMA, this is your base, everything else is a software upgrade

a) Striking—Boxing, Muy Thai, kickboxing

b) Grappling—Wrestling, Jiujitsu, Judo

c) Takedowns—Wrestling, Judo

d) Weapons—Silat and Kali/Eskrima

Disarms, multiple attackers, pre-emptive strikes, alternative methods (redirecting what you already know from MMA to violent encounters)--

a) Krav Maga (careful, mutiple brands, difficult to verify)

b) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

c) Mastro Defense System

d) Raw Combat International

e) Gutter Fighting

f) Fairbarn

g) Lee Morrison, Urban Combatives

h) Carl Cestari tapes

i) Jarrad Arbuckle

Knife fighting and edged weapons (careful with "defanging" and "biomechanical cutting", these methods assume a heavy sharp edged knife or larger)—

a) Piper

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Martial Blade Concepts

d) Fairbarn and Applegate

e) AMOK

Stick fighting and blunt weapons—

a) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Dog Brothers

Clinch work with gun—

a) Shiv Works (distance training available on Warrior Poet Society)

b) Rogue Methods

Clinch and ground work with knife—Knife Control Concepts

Improvised weapons, unconventional fighting, and situational awareness—Edsmanifesto

Pre-violence indicators-- Yousef Badou and Arcadia Cognerati



Let me know if I’m missing anything

 

[frank raud]

Skills—MMA, this is your base, everything else is a software upgrade

a) Striking—Boxing, Muy Thai, kickboxing

b) Grappling—Wrestling, Jiujitsu, Judo

c) Takedowns—Wrestling, Judo

d) Weapons—Silat and Kali/Eskrima

Disarms, multiple attackers, pre-emptive strikes, alternative methods (redirecting what you already know from MMA to violent encounters)--

a) Krav Maga (careful, mutiple brands, difficult to verify)

b) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

c) Mastro Defense System

d) Raw Combat International

e) Gutter Fighting

f) Fairbarn

g) Lee Morrison, Urban Combatives

h) Carl Cestari tapes

i) Jarrad Arbuckle

Knife fighting and edged weapons (careful with "defanging" and "biomechanical cutting", these methods assume a heavy sharp edged knife or larger)—

a) Piper

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Martial Blade Concepts

d) Fairbarn and Applegate

e) AMOK

Stick fighting and blunt weapons—

a) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Dog Brothers

Clinch work with gun—

a) Shiv Works (distance training available on Warrior Poet Society)

b) Rogue Methods

Clinch and ground work with knife—Knife Control Concepts

Improvised weapons, unconventional fighting, and situational awareness—Edsmanifesto

Pre-violence indicators-- Yousef Badou and Arcadia Cognerati



Let me know if I’m missing anything

What's the difference between Gutter fighting and Fairbairn?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

What's the difference between Gutter fighting and Fairbairn?

You pay for organization of materials. None of these systems are especially different from each other, but they focus on different things in different contexts.

 

[frank raud]

You pay for organization of materials. None of these systems are especially different from each other, but they focus on different things in different contexts.

What organizations are you referring to?Gutter fighting was Fairbairn's description of his wartime syllabus, as laid out in All-in Fighting and Get Tough!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

What organizations are you referring to?Gutter fighting was Fairbairn's description of his wartime syllabus, as laid out in All-in Fighting and Get Tough!

Gutter Fighting Secrets--I'm aware of how the name reeks of marketing. They basically repackage the Fairbarn syllabus.....come to think of it, perhaps I ought to delete the entry.

 

[frank raud]

Gutter Fighting Secrets--I'm aware of how the name reeks of marketing. They basically repackage the Fairbarn syllabus.....come to think of it, perhaps I ought to delete the entry.

I've seen his stuff and am not impressed. He had the opportunity to train with some more experienced Fairbairn influenced instructors and chose not to. Then did a video on why he didn't go. When people who attended the seminar commented on his video, he changed his tune.

 

[Flying Crane]

Skills—MMA, this is your base, everything else is a software upgrade

a) Striking—Boxing, Muy Thai, kickboxing

b) Grappling—Wrestling, Jiujitsu, Judo

c) Takedowns—Wrestling, Judo

d) Weapons—Silat and Kali/Eskrima

Disarms, multiple attackers, pre-emptive strikes, alternative methods (redirecting what you already know from MMA to violent encounters)--

a) Krav Maga (careful, mutiple brands, difficult to verify)

b) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

c) Mastro Defense System

d) Raw Combat International

e) Gutter Fighting

f) Fairbarn

g) Lee Morrison, Urban Combatives

h) Carl Cestari tapes

i) Jarrad Arbuckle

Knife fighting and edged weapons (careful with "defanging" and "biomechanical cutting", these methods assume a heavy sharp edged knife or larger)—

a) Piper

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Martial Blade Concepts

d) Fairbarn and Applegate

e) AMOK

Stick fighting and blunt weapons—

a) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Dog Brothers

Clinch work with gun—

a) Shiv Works (distance training available on Warrior Poet Society)

b) Rogue Methods

Clinch and ground work with knife—Knife Control Concepts

Improvised weapons, unconventional fighting, and situational awareness—Edsmanifesto

Pre-violence indicators-- Yousef Badou and Arcadia Cognerati



Let me know if I’m missing anything

I’m not sure I understand what your overall message is.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I’m not sure I understand what your overall message is.

Codification and organization of learning resources--there is no "message"

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I've seen his stuff and am not impressed. He had the opportunity to train with some more experienced Fairbairn influenced instructors and chose not to. Then did a video on why he didn't go. When people who attended the seminar commented on his video, he changed his tune.

Like I said, nothing special, just a resource.

 

[Flying Crane]

Codification and organization of learning resources--there is no "message"

But you feel that these are the resources one needs to look to, if they are interested in developing fighting skills, but aren’t interested in competition? MMA seems to fit prominently in your list, and to my understanding, any dedicated MMA school will be heavily focused on competition. Most of what is on your list is people and what appear to be niche programs that I have personally never heard of, or only vaguely, and that is after nearly 40 years of martial training.

Lots and lots of other martial methods do a bang-up job of teaching you quality fighting skills.

So I’m just not sure I understand what you are trying to do here.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

But you feel that these are the resources one needs to look to, if they are interested in developing fighting skills, but aren’t interested in competition? MMA seems to fit prominently in your list, and to my understanding, any dedicated MMA school will be heavily focused on competition. Most of what is on your list is people and what appear to be niche programs that I have personally never heard of, or only vaguely, and that is after nearly 40 years of martial training.

Lots and lots of other martial methods do a bang-up job of teaching you quality fighting skills.

So I’m just not sure I understand what you are trying to do here.

I list names, because you can google them, and find their resources, and that simplifies things. I list programs, as to my knowledge, they are the only brand name for the person leading it.

Much of what they teach, is routed in the mechanics you learn training MMA, so you'll understand better why you're doing it, and absorb it better.

By MMA, I don't strictly mean MMA gyms, just that you get different skills emphasized in different systems.

These programs isolate mechanics from these systems, and contextualize them for modern day violent encounters, with dirty fighting--For example, if you're wrestling with someone over a knife or gun, if you have to dodge and control an improvised weapon, or you have to quickly deal with one guy then fight off his buddy.

People who aren't knowledgeable can obsess over "dirty fighting," but eventually they realize, that "dirty fighting" is simply an enhancement to previously established martial arts skills, not a replacement.

In my experience, schools that claim to teach "dirty fighting" tend to be especially focused on the "cool factor," have a mixed quality curriculum, and as a result don't properly instill fundamentals. Students that don't know better and believe the market hype, think that their system is superior in real-world applications.

They're not going to learn the dirty, unless they know what to look up on the internet, or they happen to meet someone locally that's "been there, done that." The brands adverstized for this sort of thing are not made equal.

If you think there are other systems worth adding to this list, then I'd be happy for you to do so

 

[Flying Crane]

I list names, because you can google them, and find their resources, and that simplifies things. I list programs, as to my knowledge, they are the only brand name for the person leading it.

Much of what they teach, is routed in the mechanics you learn training MMA, so you'll understand better why you're doing it, and absorb it better.

By MMA, I don't strictly mean MMA gyms, just that you get different skills emphasized in different systems.

These programs isolate mechanics from these systems, and contextualize them for modern day violent encounters, with dirty fighting--For example, if you're wrestling with someone over a knife or gun, if you have to dodge and control an improvised weapon, or you have to quickly deal with one guy then fight off his buddy.

People who aren't knowledgeable can obsess over "dirty fighting," but eventually they realize, that "dirty fighting" is simply an enhancement to previously established martial arts skills, not a replacement.

In my experience, schools that claim to teach "dirty fighting" tend to be especially focused on the "cool factor," have a mixed quality curriculum, and as a result don't properly instill fundamentals. Students that don't know better and believe the market hype, think that their system is superior in real-world applications.

They're not going to learn the dirty, unless they know what to look up on the internet, or they happen to meet someone locally that's "been there, done that." The brands adverstized for this sort of thing are not made equal.

If you think there are other systems worth adding to this list, then I'd be happy for you to do so

Well, to be fair I anticipate most anybody would include whatever it is that they train, on this list. People train something because it appeals to them in some way, and there is likely the perception that what they train “works.” I doubt anyone would step up and say, “well I train X karate system and I love it, but it is absolutely lousy as a fighting/self-defense system.” I suppose there could be someone, but likely they are a rarity.

There are a whole lot of karate and kung fu and Silat and kuntao and grappling systems to begin with, that can help you develop quality fighting skills. Are you advocating that people ought to train in all the stuff on your list? Have you done so, or is this just a list of resources that you find interesting?

One problem with pursuing many different methods is that it is easy to get spread too thin. There are only so many hours in the day, and we all gotta eat and sleep and poop now and again, and most of us who are not lucky enough to live on a trust fund need to hold down a job, not to mention time for family and friends and other interests in life. I suspect that any of the systems you mention above all by itself, MMA, Muay Thai, wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, would make you sleep well each night if you are putting in a 2-4 hour training session a few times a week. You finish up and you are sore and worked over and exhausted and most people don’t have time or energy for another in the same day and might even need a day off in between. Then there is the issue of anything you train, whatever skills you develop, need ongoing practice to avoid losing them, besides the need to keep training for further growth. So time training in one system is time NOT training in all the others, and at some point your returns are heavily diminished as you try to train more and more methods. Ive done this: trained and tried to maintain three or four different systems at the same time. I was training as much as three times a day as well as having a full-time job and a family. You can do that for a little while but you cannot maintain it indefinitely before you start to break down, get injured, become sick, experience burnout and lose interest in training altogether. And as I get a bit older, I simply do not have that energy, or even the desire to do so. Ive let everything else drop by the wayside, other than my one favorite system.

So that being said, what would I add to the list? Of course Tibetan white crane because it is what I train. My reasons for doing so are that it has a consistent methodology for developing a full-body connection that teaches you to hit really really hard. The methodology is more consistent and specific than any other system that I have trained and my understanding of the body mechanics and my ability to deliver serious power improved dramatically once I got some quality training in Tibetan crane, and I embraced the method.

Now this is all simply based on my personal experiences. Is Tibetan crane the best, in an absolute and measurable way? I have no way of knowing and there are plenty of methods that I have not trained, including some very popular ones like boxing. Could you get similar or even better results from a different system? I don’t know from personal experience but sure, it is possible. But Tibetan crane speaks to me, I find it interesting in ways that I do not find other systems interesting, so that is what I do and I have found the results impressive.

So even though I would add Tibetan crane to the list, at the same time I cannot simply recommend that everyone ought to train it. As a method, it is somewhat unusual and even looks strange to those who do not understand the purpose for what we do. For that reason, it simply does not appeal to everybody, so no, not everybody should train it. People gotta train what they connect with and find interesting. That will not be the same thing for everyone. Using myself as an example, I have zero interest in MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, and boxing, so I do not train those even though they are very popular right now. Regardless of how effective the training may be, I’m just not gonna do it because it holds no interest for me. When I see discussions where people suggest that everyone ought to have some training in these methods, I just gotta shake my head and move on. No we do not need to have it. We all need to train what we find interesting, and that will differ from person to person.

What else could go on the list? You could add capoeira for learning supreme body control as well as athletic conditioning. I have never been in as good physical shape as when I was training capoeira obsessively. Not to mention learning some interesting and unusual physical techniques, and a very different mental outlook on training: as a way of having fun and being playful while training martial arts.

So how is that for starters?

 

[frank raud]

Like I said, nothing special, just a resource.

You might want to replace that with Fairbairn Protocol out of Montreal. Barry is heavily focussed on presenting pure Fairbairn, and has been doing so for the last 14 years.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

You might want to replace that with Fairbairn Protocol out of Montreal. Barry is heavily focussed on presenting pure Fairbairn, and has been doing so for the last 14 years.

The button is gone, but I would otherwise.

 

[frank raud]

Skills—MMA, this is your base, everything else is a software upgrade

a) Striking—Boxing, Muy Thai, kickboxing

b) Grappling—Wrestling, Jiujitsu, Judo

c) Takedowns—Wrestling, Judo

d) Weapons—Silat and Kali/Eskrima

Disarms, multiple attackers, pre-emptive strikes, alternative methods (redirecting what you already know from MMA to violent encounters)--

a) Krav Maga (careful, mutiple brands, difficult to verify)

b) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

c) Mastro Defense System

d) Raw Combat International

e) Gutter Fighting

f) Fairbarn

g) Lee Morrison, Urban Combatives

h) Carl Cestari tapes

i) Jarrad Arbuckle

Knife fighting and edged weapons (careful with "defanging" and "biomechanical cutting", these methods assume a heavy sharp edged knife or larger)—

a) Piper

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Martial Blade Concepts

d) Fairbarn and Applegate

e) AMOK

Stick fighting and blunt weapons—

a) Jim Groover/Kelly McCann

b) Libre Knife fighting

c) Dog Brothers

Clinch work with gun—

a) Shiv Works (distance training available on Warrior Poet Society)

b) Rogue Methods

Clinch and ground work with knife—Knife Control Concepts

Improvised weapons, unconventional fighting, and situational awareness—Edsmanifesto

Pre-violence indicators-- Yousef Badou and Arcadia Cognerati



Let me know if I’m missing anything

Grover not Groover.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Well, to be fair I anticipate most anybody would include whatever it is that they train, on this list. People train something because it appeals to them in some way, and there is likely the perception that what they train “works.” I doubt anyone would step up and say, “well I train X karate system and I love it, but it is absolutely lousy as a fighting/self-defense system.” I suppose there could be someone, but likely they are a rarity.

There are a whole lot of karate and kung fu and Silat and kuntao and grappling systems to begin with, that can help you develop quality fighting skills. Are you advocating that people ought to train in all the stuff on your list? Have you done so, or is this just a list of resources that you find interesting?

One problem with pursuing many different methods is that it is easy to get spread too thin. There are only so many hours in the day, and we all gotta eat and sleep and poop now and again, and most of us who are not lucky enough to live on a trust fund need to hold down a job, not to mention time for family and friends and other interests in life. I suspect that any of the systems you mention above all by itself, MMA, Muay Thai, wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, would make you sleep well each night if you are putting in a 2-4 hour training session a few times a week. You finish up and you are sore and worked over and exhausted and most people don’t have time or energy for another in the same day and might even need a day off in between. Then there is the issue of anything you train, whatever skills you develop, need ongoing practice to avoid losing them, besides the need to keep training for further growth. So time training in one system is time NOT training in all the others, and at some point your returns are heavily diminished as you try to train more and more methods. Ive done this: trained and tried to maintain three or four different systems at the same time. I was training as much as three times a day as well as having a full-time job and a family. You can do that for a little while but you cannot maintain it indefinitely before you start to break down, get injured, become sick, experience burnout and lose interest in training altogether. And as I get a bit older, I simply do not have that energy, or even the desire to do so. Ive let everything else drop by the wayside, other than my one favorite system.

So that being said, what would I add to the list? Of course Tibetan white crane because it is what I train. My reasons for doing so are that it has a consistent methodology for developing a full-body connection that teaches you to hit really really hard. The methodology is more consistent and specific than any other system that I have trained and my understanding of the body mechanics and my ability to deliver serious power improved dramatically once I got some quality training in Tibetan crane, and I embraced the method.

Now this is all simply based on my personal experiences. Is Tibetan crane the best, in an absolute and measurable way? I have no way of knowing and there are plenty of methods that I have not trained, including some very popular ones like boxing. Could you get similar or even better results from a different system? I don’t know from personal experience but sure, it is possible. But Tibetan crane speaks to me, I find it interesting in ways that I do not find other systems interesting, so that is what I do and I have found the results impressive.

So even though I would add Tibetan crane to the list, at the same time I cannot simply recommend that everyone ought to train it. As a method, it is somewhat unusual and even looks strange to those who do not understand the purpose for what we do. For that reason, it simply does not appeal to everybody, so no, not everybody should train it. People gotta train what they connect with and find interesting. That will not be the same thing for everyone. Using myself as an example, I have zero interest in MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, and boxing, so I do not train those even though they are very popular right now. Regardless of how effective the training may be, I’m just not gonna do it because it holds no interest for me. When I see discussions where people suggest that everyone ought to have some training in these methods, I just gotta shake my head and move on. No we do not need to have it. We all need to train what we find interesting, and that will differ from person to person.

What else could go on the list? You could add capoeira for learning supreme body control as well as athletic conditioning. I have never been in as good physical shape as when I was training capoeira obsessively. Not to mention learning some interesting and unusual physical techniques, and a very different mental outlook on training: as a way of having fun and being playful while training martial arts.

So how is that for starters?

This is for people that want to learn for real-world-violence applications, and "taking what is useful" from the relevant systems.

In the self-defense and combatives community, there is more or less consensus on what is or isn't useful for that purpose, as people have survived dangerous situations learning those lessons. Hand to hand has not changed much throughout the history of brawling and warfare--in the sense that there are certain things that work, and that don't work, per the environment you're dealing with. It is not inherently subjective.

I am not an expert on the traditional martial arts, but I have heard about certain things being taught in those circles, that have routes in older systems, "what's old is new," so that does not surprise me.

I am not saying you "have" to study these systems. They are simply the ones I'm aware of, that are useful for this context.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is for people that want to learn for real-world-violence applications, and "taking what is useful" from the relevant systems.

In the self-defense and combatives community, there is more or less consensus on what is or isn't useful for that purpose, as people have survived dangerous situations learning those lessons. Hand to hand has not changed much throughout the history of brawling and warfare--in the sense that there are certain things that work, and that don't work, per the environment you're dealing with. It is not inherently subjective.

I am not an expert on the traditional martial arts, but I have heard about certain things being taught in those circles, that have routes in older systems, "what's old is new," so that does not surprise me.

I am not saying you "have" to study these systems. They are simply the ones I'm aware of, that are useful for this context.

Ok well, you have opened this thread in the general martial arts discussion area, and simply titled it “for those who want to learn how to fight outside of sport”. That seems very very wide open for discussion.

Is it your opinion that the traditional martial arts do not have a place in this discussion? Do you disagree with anything I said in my prior post, or feel that any of it merits further discussion?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Ok well, you have opened this thread in the general martial arts discussion area, and simply titled it “for those who want to learn how to fight outside of sport”. That seems very very wide open for discussion.

Is it your opinion that the traditional martial arts do not have a place in this discussion? Do you disagree with anything I said in my prior post, or feel that any of it merits further discussion?

It's not that simple.

Rory Miller, a household name in the realm of self-defense and combatives, trained a specific form of medieval Jujitsu (don't remember the name). It was developed to address Samurai being in the clinch on the battlefield. It happened to be perfect for his needs dealing with criminals.

Traditional martial arts are useful, but quality instructors can be a lot harder to find, and some them were developed as a response to specific tactical and cultural problems at a given point in history, which are no longer relevant. HEMA for example, can be quite fascinating academically, but the nature of how violence is applied has changed to the point, that much of it is no longer useful. As another example, not all FMA or Silat is useful to people living in Western countries, given as it was developed with heavier blades in mind--while most of us are carrying pocket knives, criminals use hard objects filed to a point or low-quality ditch knives, and soldiers use them as a quick stabby backup if they lose control of their rifle.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not that simple.

Rory Miller, a household name in the realm of self-defense and combatives, trained a specific form of medieval Jujitsu (don't remember the name). It was developed to address Samurai being in the clinch on the battlefield. It happened to be perfect for his needs dealing with criminals.

Traditional martial arts are useful, but quality instructors can be a lot harder to find, and some them were developed as a response to specific tactical and cultural problems at a given point in history, which are no longer relevant. HEMA for example, can be quite fascinating academically, but the nature of how violence is applied has changed to the point, that much of it is no longer useful. As another example, not all FMA or Silat is useful to people living in Western countries, given as it was developed with heavier blades in mind--while most of us are carrying pocket knives, criminals use hard objects filed to a point or low-quality ditch knives, and soldiers use them as a quick stabby backup if they lose control of their rifle.

Fair observations. I am familiar with the name of Rory Miller, but have not read any of his works.

With that said, I hold to my previous suggestions regarding Tibetan crane and capoeira, but I also certainly recognize that quality instruction can be difficult to find. I am sure that is an issue with most every system and should be recognized in the underlying baseline: any system is only as good as the quality of instruction received.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Fair observations. I am familiar with the name of Rory Miller, but have not read any of his works.

With that said, I hold to my previous suggestions regarding Tibetan crane and capoeira, but I also certainly recognize that quality instruction can be difficult to find. I am sure that is an issue with most every system and should be recognized in the underlying baseline: any system is only as good as the quality of instruction received.

I'm noticing that certain themes repeat themselves across different systems that were developed for tactical purposes, which isn't surpising, given that the tactical problems various cultures encounter tend to be consistent. What it ultimately comes down to, is understanding the context of those systems, and choosing to train those that fit your needs.

If someone's interest, is as I've stated, and they don't live near a good locale for the traditional martial arts they need--then the MMAs are their best bet, they are ubiquitous, and they're what people train for that as is, so you're all "speaking the same language." Bonus points, if your training partners want to learn focused self-defense, and are willing to invest in the relevant learning resources.

I highly recommend his book Meditations On Violence. It's perhaps one of the best books on this very issue.