For those of you who want to learn how to fight outside of sport:

[GreenieMeanie]

We used to do that all the time in knife fighting class. Our instructor had everyone throw twenty bucks into a pool. Two guys, each at opposite walls, would run to the middle where the knife was, and then the fight was on. Loser was eliminated. We would continue until only a winner was left, the winner would get all the money. I only won once, but it was over four hundred bucks. What fun we had.

There was a guy from South Africa, Mark Human, he used to teach a lot of classes dealing with the draw and use of a knife while grappling. It was eye opening, lots of fun, too. One of the lessons learned was how you carry a knife so you can get to it quickly under any circumstance.

It sucked so bad when you were getting smoked on the ground and couldn't get to your training knife.

His wife, Kelly, was a friend of mine. (one of Nick Cerio's former spouses) She was teaching a class in her school in Johannesburg when she noticed out the window one of her students being attacked by a group of men. She grabbed nunchucks off the wall, ran out and went at them. Split the head open of one of the attackers, the rest ran away. Guy died on the way to the hospital.

Everything was caught on a security camera. The cops looked at it, took her statement, didn't even bring her to the station. From what she told me, nobody ever attacked anyone outside of her school again.

South Africans have a solid understanding of violence.

 

[Buka]

South Africans have a solid understanding of violence.

South Africans have a solid understanding of violence.

They do. I was fortunate enough to spend a month there, training and competing the entire time.
It was a very interesting experience.

And the food was terrific.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My instructor would toss in a weapon in the middle of that, see who gets it first. Grappling over a knife is an absolute *****.

First time I did that was 40 years ago in Jiu Jitsu class at the age of ten. My Sensei made us race on hands and knees to get the knife. It was one of my faves as a kid.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

South Africans have a solid understanding of violence.

True that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Atlanta, GA: November 5th-6th, 2022 — Ed's Manifesto

This module explores the subject matter of non-permissive environments and the weapons of opportunity that can be improvised, concealed and used in high risk situations. Using case studies to reverse-engineer criminal methodologies involving weapons, the Weaponology Module focuses on the evidenc

www.edsmanifesto.com

If this is the one, it's 550$

Holy cow! I am in the wrong business.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Holy cow! I am in the wrong business.

He has branded himself very, very well. Check out his content on youtube and IG, and you'll see what I mean. He is jokingly known as the "Sneaky Reaper."

They also held a class with instructors from Army SOF and FBI, covering armed vehicle interdiction, and counter-ambushing. I understand it was the ticket price was $1k.

Other instructors in his league, charge similarly for their stuff.

RIFLE GUNFIGHTING - NOVEMBER 4-6, 2022 - PRESCOTT, AZ

Suarez International manufacturers aftermarket custom pistol and rifle accessories, knives, and we do custom firearm work. We are also a top firearms training company in the United States.

suarezinternational.com

Modern Self Defense Training For Those Who Carry Firearms Personally and Professionally. — Rogue Methods

Firearms training taken to a new level. Incorporating hand to hand combat skills, weapons retention, tactics, self defense, firearms training, performance shooting, wrestling, Krav Maga, jiujitsu, leadership, teamwork and overall skill development.

rogue-methods.com

https://www.protectorsymposium.com/ps5-enrollment-form55286772

 

[drop bear]

Holy cow! I am in the wrong business.

I had a mate of mine charged I think $400 an hour to teach RSBD to some industry guys. And they paid it.

Sorry $500

 

[Ironbear24]

We can all agree that the systems people have done for MMA over the years, are tried and proven in the ring, and their lineage is systems that were once taught for combat before firearms became implemented (this of course gets a little complicated culture to culture at a point in history, but you get the idea).

The fighting mechanics you learn in these systems apply broadly, and can be analogous to sort of your fighting operating system.

However--there are limitations to it. Your operating system is a platform, unequipped to preform some tasks by itself. There are certain things you're not gonna learn from the MMA competitive curriculum (because the only instance you're gonna scientifically test them, is out in the street, or the field), that others have personally experienced and devoted their career to codifying.

The list includes those instructors and their programs, and what their specialties are.

I'm not saying that this is a complete list, that they are the best, or that one HAS to learn from them--but they ARE learning resources for particular things, with references, a number of whom have trained together, and not some randos that decided to open up a Krav Maga school down the street.

Fairbarn was a street cop in Asia, dedicated his life to learning what was useful in Asian MA, and was brought in to teach WWII commandos and spies the basics of how to fight. As @frank raud mentioned, Fairbarn Protocol is a good resource for this.

Carl Cestari was also a street cop, who dedicated his life similarly and learned from the surviving members of the WWII combatives program.

Kelly McCann is a Fairbarn and Applegate influenced instructor, who served in SOF and has been there, done that.

Lee Morrison is a life-long martial artist, who spent time in gangs and was involved in quite a few street altercations, and he and McCann have trained together.

Craig Douglas, one of the Shiv Works collective, was an undercover officer who's "been there, done that." One of his specialties is grappling over weapons in a car.

Libre Knife Fighting was founded by Scott Babb. He's a lifelong martial artist, who's dealt with a variety of knife-related altercations in his life, and developed a system that focuses more on how criminals use the knife. To my knowledge, he has trained with Mexican and Indonesian forces, and his students have helped him evolve the system, bringing back feedback from their real-life experiences on the street and field.

Piper was founded by Nigel Febuary and Llyod de Jongh, and it's the codification of how SA gangs and hoods are known to use knives.

Raul Martinez (Rogue Methods) was an infantryman and undercover cop, similar to Craig Douglas.

Ed Calderon was Mexican SF, who saw a lot of ****. He learned a lot of the people on the list, and has his own life experiences to teach from. His specialty is more situational awareness, travel safety, and counter-abduction.

Another name I should have added, is Brian Halliday, another MMA guy and life-long martial artist, who was in a biker gang and managed to survive an ungodly amount of street fights. He also helped develop Mastro Defense System.

The team at Arcadia Cognetari developed the marine corps Hunter program, which teaches spotting the pre-indicators of violent situations before they happen. Yousef Badou was an instructor for that program.

Given what I've seen on this website, it seems y'all know the rest.

So you contradict yourself because as you stated mma won't teach these things. It all depends what the person wants out of their training, if they want self defense then they need to become adequate at striking, grappling, (clinches and groundwork) and weapon disarms.

Where they acquire these things is irrelevant so long as they acquire them.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Where they acquire these things is irrelevant so long as they acquire them.

If you could demonstrate, where in my statements we disagree, specifically, the exact wordage, we can discuss accordingly.

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

We can all agree that the systems people have done for MMA over the years, are tried and proven in the ring...

Such a statement is not without some truth, but one must recall that the early pattycakes in the octagon were hand-picked by the Gracies to ensure their wins. And they had them ... until they sold their UFC media rights. I remember watching the first one in shock, wondering why some of the contestants couldn't get out of simple holds my newest students could have escaped from. And basically, the BJJ Gracie displayed at the time was only a handful of techniques at best, each of which could be easily countered if you know them. It was a show, nothing more.

And then there was the time years later (not mentioning any names) when a contestant was pretty much done with his turn but the other side threw the towel in for no apparent reason. Even the winner privately agreed that he had been clearly beaten (and bleeding, whereas the other opponent was not).

So when it's not scammed or staged, cockfights in the octagon may give us some idea of practical merits, but to say "proof" is a bit much for some of us to swallow. And it also begs a benchmark we may not agree on, as it takes far more skill to not have to fight to the point of a lawsuit than to simply pummel someone into submission through brute force.

 

[Blindside]

He has branded himself very, very well. Check out his content on youtube and IG, and you'll see what I mean. He is jokingly known as the "Sneaky Reaper."

They also held a class with instructors from Army SOF and FBI, covering armed vehicle interdiction, and counter-ambushing. I understand it was the ticket price was $1k.

I think half of the difference is the habits of the marketplace, martial artists are used to relatively low prices, I swear that a weekend martial arts seminar has barely changed price in 20 years. "Gun guys" are used to paying a lot more for a weekend of training and so don't really blink when charged what we from the more traditional martial arts community think of as high.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think half of the difference is the habits of the marketplace, martial artists are used to relatively low prices, I swear that a weekend martial arts seminar has barely changed price in 20 years. "Gun guys" are used to paying a lot more for a weekend of training and so don't really blink when charged what we from the more traditional martial arts community think of as high.

Well this is true. I am both a MA and a gun guy. I have paid large sums to train with high end shooters of various skill sets. You have a fair point, I never really thought about it in that respect. Thank you.

 

[Buka]

Such a statement is not without some truth, but one must recall that the early pattycakes in the octagon were hand-picked by the Gracies to ensure their wins. And they had them ... until they sold their UFC media rights. I remember watching the first one in shock, wondering why some of the contestants couldn't get out of simple holds my newest students could have escaped from. And basically, the BJJ Gracie displayed at the time was only a handful of techniques at best, each of which could be easily countered if you know them. It was a show, nothing more.

And then there was the time years later (not mentioning any names) when a contestant was pretty much done with his turn but the other side threw the towel in for no apparent reason. Even the winner privately agreed that he had been clearly beaten (and bleeding, whereas the other opponent was not).

So when it's not scammed or staged, cockfights in the octagon may give us some idea of practical merits, but to say "proof" is a bit much for some of us to swallow. And it also begs a benchmark we may not agree on, as it takes far more skill to not have to fight to the point of a lawsuit than to simply pummel someone into submission through brute force.

Early contestants in the UFC were not handpicked by the Gracies. Art Davies (founder the UFC) invited everybody of note in the Martial Arts to compete. When they saw the rules they all declined.

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

Early contestants in the UFC were not handpicked by the Gracies. Art Davies (founder the UFC) invited everybody of note in the Martial Arts to compete. When they saw the rules they all declined.

I would more closely recheck the credits and who owned media rights. {cough} Rorian Gracie {cough}. IMO, the first UFC was nothing but a blatant commercial for GJJ. They didn't invest so much in such a project just to be shown up. It was contrived to put their franchise on the global map.

And I doubt they couldn't find anyone of real skill or rank in their respective arts, as beneath them such a fight might seem to some. Regardless of the reason, that proves the UFC doesn't give any definitive proof of the superiority of styles or techniques not properly represented.

 

[Buka]

I would more closely recheck the credits and who owned media rights. {cough} Rorian Gracie {cough}. IMO, the first UFC was nothing but a blatant commercial for GJJ. They didn't invest so much in such a project just to be shown up. It was contrived to put their franchise on the global map.

And I doubt they couldn't find anyone of real skill or rank in their respective arts, as beneath them such a fight might seem to some. Regardless of the reason, that proves the UFC doesn't give any definitive proof of the superiority of styles or techniques not properly represented.

The Gracies would have entered Rickson instead of Royce had they been really looking to cash in.

And, NO, the promotor, Art Davies, couldn't find people crazy enough to enter. Besides the rule set scaring them off, an open weight format kept them away in droves. It's a really interesting story, I think you'ld enjoy it.