Footwork in second section Chum Kiu

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I'm having an interesting discussion with a WC friend of mine via email about the application of the second section Chum Kiu move. More specificaly the one where you move to the side while throwing out the Bong Sao(Jeet Bong Sao with one hand not the double Bong).

Anyway my question is, how do you guys interpret it? Do you apply it the way it is? Do you feel it shouldn't be applyed as done in the form? If not, why do we do it so/what is the purpuse of doing it so? I'm talking about moving forward while doing Bong.

I look forward to reading your responses!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Some Lineages do it different. The Yip does it To side while moving forward...Other lineages throw the bong and Wu Sau in front of them using forward pressure. It has many different applications I have played around with.

As for in sparring or drills I would say to practice it the way it is in drills when you are comfortable apply it in sparring. But first one must drill. If you do not alter the move to much the bong can be use to intercept a Sun punch. The moving forward can be tweaked. When I spar I move backwards, to the side,forward and also around. One can practice circling your opponent by tweaking the front step. While you circling the opponent your center line is slightly facing him giving more use of both hands. Instead of just the side body stance.

Or you can alter the bong sau into other techniques while stepping to side to circle or stepping out of striking range. For instance the bong sau can be a sun punch,palm Strike or another offensive deflection. Also the bong sau can used to intercept grab and pull the opponents arm.

Like I said there are many different applications. These may not be the ones that some sifu's teach but these are things I have notice when sparring doing chi sau an practicing the form. Envision three opponents while doing doing Chum Kiu. One directly infront of you and the other two centerlines are facing your left and right shoulders. Play around with it. See what you think.


new Applications will be revealed!

I'm having an interesting discussion with a WC friend of mine via email about the application of the second section Chum Kiu move. More specificaly the one where you move to the side while throwing out the Bong Sao(Jeet Bong Sao with one hand not the double Bong).

Anyway my question is, how do you guys interpret it? Do you apply it the way it is? Do you feel it shouldn't be applyed as done in the form? If not, why do we do it so/what is the purpuse of doing it so? I'm talking about moving forward while doing Bong.

I look forward to reading your responses!

 

[mook jong man]

The main application is to teach you to apply multiple vectors of force at once . An opponent can resist a force vector of one direction but two force vectors in different directions at once makes life very difficult for him .

One use of the application I was taught is if a rather strong opponent has trapped your arms down very low from the side you can use the technique to repel him off of you . In one force vector your body is going forward and in the other force vector you are directing the revolving force of the Bong Sau into his body.

We used to do it as a drill with some one leaning both their forearms and weight from the side onto our low crossed forearms and we would attempt to shift them and throw them off by doing Chum Kiu stepping and Bong Sau's up and down the hall .

It does wonders for your stance , but for it to work properly the movement has to be initiated from the hips and with perfect synchronisation of the arm movements , if they are out of kilter it will be hard for you to apply it against a strong force .
Thats the first application that came to mind Im sure there is many more , I just can't remember them.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks for all those applications Yoshi, but thats not quite what I was looking for. I'm not looking for applications of the Bong just the interpretation of this particular move.

But as I understood, both of you apply it the way it is in the form for various reasons/applications, right?

Anybody out there who feels it shouldn't be applyed that way or that it teaches you other stuff then a move for acctual application in fighting?

BTW, Mook, I like what you say about the move teaching you how to apply multiple vectors of force at once. Thats somwhere along my thoughts too.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The whole 'theme' of chum kil is to get your arms and legs moving as one (instead of leaving structure behind)

The bong sao movement is to train the body moving structure whilst arrow walking. Like with most everything in the forms, DON'T TAKE EVERYTHING SO LITERALLY. You can apply certain things to fighting, but generally they are just to build stance, energy, footwork, power, etc.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Each technique teaches you multiple applications and techniques. Every move can numerous other techniques.


How do you normally use the technique you are sharing...I am curious.

Thanks for all those applications Yoshi, but thats not quite what I was looking for. I'm not looking for applications of the Bong just the interpretation of this particular move.

But as I understood, both of you apply it the way it is in the form for various reasons/applications, right?

Anybody out there who feels it shouldn't be applyed that way or that it teaches you other stuff then a move for acctual application in fighting?

BTW, Mook, I like what you say about the move teaching you how to apply multiple vectors of force at once. Thats somwhere along my thoughts too.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

The whole 'theme' of chum kil is to get your arms and legs moving as one (instead of leaving structure behind)

The bong sao movement is to train the body moving structure whilst arrow walking. Like with most everything in the forms, DON'T TAKE EVERYTHING SO LITERALLY. You can apply certain things to fighting, but generally they are just to build stance, energy, footwork, power, etc.

So if I understand correctly, you wouldn't apply this move as it is? So you would say the whole point behind this move is moving your structure? So the Bong doesn't realy play a significant role here? Are you saying the move is training you how to move with correct structure or are you saying it's training you how to step without leaving your arm structure behind? Didn't realy get what you ment with this, can you explain a bit more please?

And yes, sure, one of the points of Chum Kiu is moving your structure yes. But again I'm only interested in this particular move.

And, yes I guess you could look at forms like that. But if you look at them just like that I feel you'd be missing on a big part of WC. It's a smart system and I have hardly found anything without a reason in it. So I feel this is a valid question if you feel the forms should be interpreted literly or not. There should be reasoning behind the moves you do or you could just practice WC moves not the forms, wouldn't you say?

It all came from an interesting discussion I had with a WC friend of mine. He knows I'm on a WC forum and I told him there are some people here with 20years+ experience and so he asked me if I could post a topic on this theme to see what other people are thinking. I was just wondering.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Each technique teaches you multiple applications and techniques. Every move can numerous other techniques.


How do you normally use the technique you are sharing...I am curious.

As you said yourself, each move in the forms has multiple applications/concepts/training methods behind it. Please don't make me go into all of them That would be futile!

But to answer my own question; against a punch I realy don't see why it would make sense to step forward while doing Bong. So no I wouldn't use it that way. But I would use exactly as in a form against a pull/strong Lap for example. I feel it has many uses and applications but I realy wanted to hear from some of you people who have been in WC for a while on your thoughts about the purpose of the move. The question acctualy is: is there are reason we do it the way we do it?

I've seen interpretation of the move done by diffrent people from diffrent lineages but most have looked very far-fetched to me and I feel WC is sopposed to be a no-boolsheet martial art.

I hope that answers your question!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Eru Ilúvatar

The question acctualy is: is there are reason we do it the way we do it?

Thats a very great question. To honest I don't have the answer to it. I think you mean. Is there a reason that the Bong Sau and Wu Sau is done that way in the form. I would gathered the creators of the form had various reasons for placing each technique where they did. But again great question. I also was taught the move you speak of is good for arm breaks. As a matter of fact my Sifu's Sihing share alot of arm breaking techniques out of Chum Kiu. My Sihing uses that technique to uproot an opponent...Its very interesting.


But I never created any form before So I can not give a really good answer on that. I know that forms are an encylopedia to the techniques of Wing Chun.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Well this is the kind of feedback I was hoping for! Never thought of it that way. Can you explain the arm break a bit more? Would you do it with a reversing Wu? But wouldn't the angle of the Bong make the arm hard to "trap"/easy to escape?

And Bong for uprooting, thats an interesting concept I haven't tryed before. Have to try it the next time I train with a partner!

What are some other thoughts on this move? I know some of you guys have been in WC for 20 years or more; I'm sure at least a few of you have asked a similar question. Or how do you racionalise it?

 

[Si-Je]

I have a question. Are you speaking of the low bong sau movement with the step to tan sau movement repeated 3 times as you step?
If so, we use variants of that off a kick. Where you must step in with your low bong sau on say a hook/roundhouse kick, and as your stepping roll to tan sau to put the opponent to the ground.

A high bong sau and stepping in. We do that off a hook punch. Starting with Dai sau, getting turned into bong sau as you step forward to their side, and tan sau with the other hand or bil gee to a neck throw or take down, punch or palm strike to the kidney, or punching to side and back of the face. Yet on a high bong sau the foot work isn't as straight lined as in the form.

I thought the low bong and stepping to tan sau in the form was like 'garn sau' or for going into Chin na for arm breaks too. But, i guess it depends how you do the form.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

No, I was talking about the high Bong Sao with step not the double Bong with step.

Interesting. So if I understand it corectly: you use a Bong as a "cover" against a hook like punch while stepping in at about 45 degrees?

 

[Si-Je]

No, I was talking about the high Bong Sao with step not the double Bong with step.

Interesting. So if I understand it corectly: you use a Bong as a "cover" against a hook like punch while stepping in at about 45 degrees?

Sure. Again that darn dai sau starts the cover then as your turned into bong sau due to opponent's force your stepping into their side while going under the punching arm. You can add tan sau to turn their body as you step, or use bil gee, and bam-o! your at their side with their arm closest to you turned across their face/chest and have the ribs, side of the head, back, side of the knee, etc. to work over. Sifu has been just showing me this stuff recently, it's pretty cool.

I'm not sure if we do a high bong sau in chum kiu. It's been a while since I've done the form. bad Si-Je.
We do the double bong with stepping then turn around and do a low single bong sau coupled with a pak sau on top of it, then roll the low bong sau to tan sau while stepping placing the Pak sau hand on top of forearm of tan sau. Basically, we bong sau and step with front foot, then as you roll to tan sau with same hand you step with back foot. Stepping in a one two fashion kinda. With the hands moving with each step. Not sure why it's done like that.
Where do you do the high bong sau in the chum kiu form in your system? Either we don't do that at all, or I'm forgetting it. Which is totally possible.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Interesting you mention Bong with Pak. I notice most people do Wu with the Bong but I do Pak too.

Well, high... The wrist is at about solar plexus height or a bit heigher.

In our system we did it after the whole turning Bong, Faak to Jum rutine; at the start of the new section we went out with a Jum then went to the side with a Lan like motion, kicked and then we did this throwing out Bong while stepping. My instructor liked to call it Jeet Bong Sao. Then after repeating the same at the other side we did the double Bong section.

Hope that makes sense

 

[Si-Je]

oh! okay. I think that's a little different that what hubbie taught me. We just go to the double bong sau part without the high bong sau. (we lost a move there! )
I like that.
I'd imagine that you could bong sau a hook type puch as you kick to take away their power in the punch too. Just off the top of my head. Which kick do you do? Hook kick, or heel kick, or side kick?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

The Arm break is kinda of creepy thing. I never performed it on any one in a street fight. But The way I understand it is when you modify the Wu Sau to a gum or lop motion. In other words your hand is like grabbing their fist/wrist and pulling it down While your bong sau or bone is rotating and deflecting upward against their elbow. The force going upward and steep force going doward with a fast force will cause injury to elbow or snap it depending on the force and timing use. But I don't really like that application it takes alot of practice to be accurate. I practice other arm breaks where you use both hands oppose to arm and hand. But I have been reading up on Chin Na an they use alot of stuff where they use the arm and not the hand to apply pressure. But again you have to drill it over and over again for it to be useful.

But this typical arm breaks work best on sun fist. There are other arm breaks that work better with a horizontal punch.

The Arm break I perfer for the sun fist is using lop sau and tie sau or lop sau and tok sau motion. I believe there is more range when using Tok or Tie Sau because you drive the elbow upwards while pushing the wrist downward causing the elbow to go beyond its threshold of pain. But thats my mere opinion. I am not body special.

Well this is the kind of feedback I was hoping for! Never thought of it that way. Can you explain the arm break a bit more? Would you do it with a reversing Wu? But wouldn't the angle of the Bong make the arm hard to "trap"/easy to escape?

And Bong for uprooting, thats an interesting concept I haven't tryed before. Have to try it the next time I train with a partner!

What are some other thoughts on this move? I know some of you guys have been in WC for 20 years or more; I'm sure at least a few of you have asked a similar question. Or how do you racionalise it?

 

[mook jong man]

From what I remember my Sifu saying , he said words to the effect that Sil Lum Tao is like the chassis of a car , Chum Kiu is the engine of the car and the Bil Gee is like installing a high powered turbo charger in the car .

I still believe that most of the applications for the stepping Bong Sau are to do with repelling someone off balance who has your arms trapped down low and in the worse case scenario your arms are crossed .

My logic in thinking this was because most of the time we used the revolving force of the Bong Sau to attack peoples balance and move them off their stance , I just see this as adding the "Engine " of Chum Kiu to increase that attacking , off balancing force.

I do remember another application in Chi Sau , when somebody drops their Fook Sau down on your Bong Sau trapping you and trys to punch with their other hand , you immediately pivot and bring up your High Bong Sau with your Wu Sau and deflect the punch and then Lop and Fak Sau the throat .

It is usually done with a pivot but I see no reason why you could not do it with a step into them and disrupt their balance and collapse their structure with your Wu and Bong , move in close , Lop then hit them with an elbow strike from your Bong arm .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

From what I remember my Sifu saying , he said words to the effect that Sil Lum Tao is like the chassis of a car , Chum Kiu is the engine of the car and the Bil Gee is like installing a high powered turbo charger in the car .

I agree with that analogy. And here again is a reason why these forms are though in a certein order and why certein moves in cetein forms are in a specific form.

It is usually done with a pivot but I see no reason why you could not do it with a step into them and disrupt their balance and collapse their structure with your Wu and Bong , move in close , Lop then hit them with an elbow strike from your Bong arm .

I'm having some trouble imagining this one. In this specific application you mention, would you use the Bong forward and sidestepping or going forward with the Bong infront of you?

If I understand the technique correctly we did something similar against a strong Lap or downward pull; we would move in with the Bong while (with a little luck) trapping his incoming punch. Then you would be free too pound with your free hand. Did you mean something similar?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

oh! okay. I think that's a little different that what hubbie taught me. We just go to the double bong sau part without the high bong sau. (we lost a move there! )
I like that.
I'd imagine that you could bong sau a hook type puch as you kick to take away their power in the punch too. Just off the top of my head. Which kick do you do? Hook kick, or heel kick, or side kick?

We do heel kicks in CK. But I think theres a low side kick in our wooden dummy form. My instructor also saw a low sweep like roundhouse kick to the leg in the Biu Tze.

Thats interesting. So you have the turning Bong and the double Bong but not the third one? I would appreciate if you could ask your Sifu some questions about that; did he discard it becouse something bothered him about that move or he was thought without it?

If I remember correctly you said once your lineage is Jim Fung/Leung Ting, right? Not sure about Fung but I think Leung Ting dose the Bong I mentioned in CK.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Do any of you guys got videos of your Chum Kiu?