FMA On The Ground

[Icepick]

Ever since I was a small child, I have derived great enjoyment from bullying those smaller than myself, so naturally, I like sports/arts like wrestling and BJJ.

My first and most extensive exposure to Martial Arts has been in Modern Arnis. As a FMArtist, I have also followed the rise of the Dog Brothers, and their style of "Real Contact Stickfighting". This leads me to wonder why we see so little groundfighting in the FMA. In Modern Arnis, the groundfighting portion generally consists of: I throw you to the ground, I "groundfight", your arm breaks. Professor taught very little (any?) technique for being in an inferior position on the ground. I once attempted to explore this with him, by asking "What would you do in a stickfight if the other guy tackled you?". He looked at me quizzically, and asked "Who could do that?". Now, that may work for someone who is clearly at the genius level in stickfighting, but obviously, not every eskrimador is at Professor's level...

I have a few theories (not that they all originate with me, but):

1.) If an eskrimador had a stick, he probably had a knife as backup. A knife is an effective deterrent to grappling.

2.) Even in "death matches" in the PI, Manong Buot describes a referee, and rules. These matches were a test of skill, and losing your stick is a loss. Therefore, most Arnis/Kali/Eskrima systems eschewed groundfighting.

3.) There exist indigenous FMA grappling arts, but there has not been the incentive to continue them or bring them to the US.

4.) The use of a helmet in DBMA fighting makes the takedown possible. Between skilled eskrimador, the use of the punyo makes groundfighting unlikely.

There are surely people who know a lot more than me on this topic, and I look forward to your responses. Also, has anyone trained in Paul Vunak's "Dumog" or Garimot Arnis "Buno". I've seen a little of the latter, but no dumog as described in PFS video.

Thanks!

 

[Black Grass]

There is a tendency to group all the FMA together. We equate that arnis/eskrima/kali as being the same as we do dumog/buno/grappling. However, intentions of the arts may be different.

Now agree that arnis/eskrima/kali today are all basically the same (weapon based systems) but the intentions of the different systems are not. FMA weapon based systems can be generally group in two ways : stick v. blade and dueling v. combat. This is what i see as ultimately driving if there is ground grappling (or grappling in general) with weapons or not.

Dueling v. Combat:
Dueling is one on one and combat can be any combanation of people. Dueling allows for grappling (standup and ground) and combat does not (for the most part). When you are concerned with only one opponent you can spend your time grappling with your opponent, but when you need to worry about others on the battlefield you can't spead to much time with one person (and this includes roling on the ground). Also in dueling the point is to win, now winning may mean anything from making your opponent lose it submit or killing him but in combat the point is to stay alive.

Stick v. Blade:
First off, there are FMA systems that have ground grappling with the stick. Villibrille is an example of a system that has ground stick grappling. Systems that are based on the blade would not have grappling as this is generally unadvisable. Kalis Ilustrisimo (lit. sword Ilustrisimo) is almost completely devoid of grappling ( including standup). In terms of the helmets the DB use, they don't offer alot of protection to the head but they do however provide some protection to the face. A shot to the top of the head with a rattan stick may not stop someone but a shot to the face is another story.

Buno/Dumog:
Buno/Dumog/Bultung/Combat Judo all describe the samething 'grappling' but there intentions are different. Again is this grappling for combat or as a contest? Dumog is a very generic term, among the igorot dumog is a contest where you want to pin your opponent, in the Visayas combat judo is a term used to describe combat grappling or dumog (it is not related to Kano judo). Again in a combat situation you don't want to spend time rolling. It seems most of the Filipino grappling taught in the US is more combat based hence there is not alot of ground grappling being taught. Again there are systems that do have ground grappling. Hagibis is an example.

So there are many factors as to why there is not alot of FMA ground grappling.

just my 2 cents ( 1.2 cents US)

regards,

Vince

 

[Icepick]

Black Grass -

What does the "combat judo" look like?

 

[Black Grass]

Its just another term for dumog or buno, locks and throws that don't rely on grabbing clothes.

Again dumog and buno are generic terms like arnis or eskrima. How one does dumog or buno or combat judo may very from person to person. They are not necessarily specfic systems. Its like Arnis Lanada and Modern Arnis both are arnis, infact both are examples of modern arnis (modern as opposed to classical) but are unrelated method wise.

(Sorry for the confusion, I made the mistake of using proper names when I ment the terms generically)


Regards,

Vince

 

[IFAJKD]

I am an Instructor under Paul Vunak and have trained in Dumog. It IS a Filipin grappling system and when incorporated with BJJ it is very very good from standing clinching range (trapping) to the ground.. From there Kino Mutai is most effective but few know. Dan Inosanto brought this to Paul and Paul to his Instructors.

 

[Black Grass]

Hey IFAJKD,

I too train under the PFS banner (under Makoto Kabayama).
What I posted is that dumog is a very generic term that can describe a system such as the one Vu has or the igorot have or grappling in general and that not all dumog is the same or has the same purpose. Bisaya/Cebuano dumog can mean wrestling.

Regards,

Vince

 

[IFAJKD]

Vince, Hey man cool to see ya here. Mokoto, very good indeed. You're right, Dumog can be alot like "kali" in that it describes alot. also kinda like "karate" many different things come to mind. In the systems I trained Dumog under, I have condensed it into the following.
1: standing grappling/clinching
2: ground manipulations with emphasis on BJJ
3: of course finally Kino Mutai

As you know, Dumog (as taught through Paul) really emphasises the body's natural choke points. Combined with major tools it can be very awesome. With trapping it becomes very unique. The nice things about JKD is this integration. To be honest It is work for me to pay attention to where one system ends and another picks up.
See ya around

 

[Mao]

I think that you are on the right track with your BJJ bent these days. I love the idea of cross training. One of the styles that I "use" is pencak silat mande muda, particularly harimau. It is a great ground "game" among other things. I have found that a good bit of the harimau in mande muda fits perfectly with much of the ground work in modern arnis. What I have found is that alot of the ground work in mod. arnis is the same as that in mande muda only mande muda takes the movement further, to a finish, if you will. GADZ, I love martial arts.....:rofl:

 

[thekuntawman]

the reason philippine martial arts seems "one dimension" to a lot of american students, is that the philippine philosophy is not to be a jack of all trades. we specialize in our style of fighting, maybe two, then we learn how to fight those different styles that arent like ours. martial artists here want to know everything, and they forgot that you have do better than just know the other style, you have to be very good at it.

if a jujitsu man picks a fight with me, and i have a knife, so he pulls one out, if he is not better than me at the knife, he is in big trouble. i dont care how many knife tapes he got or how many seminars he went to. but at the same time, if he wants to wrestle, and i try to wrestle with him, cross training time wont help me, since i am trying to beat him at his game.

but if the jujitsu man learns to wrestle me with a knife (i wont be so arrogant to say he would be stupid since i dont know who would win), he will have a better chance to beat me than if he wants to fight my way.

in the philippines, strikiing with the hands or the weapon is the favorite specialty. not many styles chose to try other things, and that is why pilipinos are the best at that kind of fighting. and just because we dont do a little of this and alittle of that it doesnt mean thoe styles are incomplete. they are only incomplete if they dont study how to fight a grappler using their specialty.

 

[Hand Sword]

From what I've seen, It works very well on the ground. The art of biting? Those BJJ holds will open up quick! The destructions? Much easier to pull off down there. Armed with a blade or knife? No leverage for the opponent to use, no where to evade, with you on them? Enough said!

 

[Blindside]

Wow, serious thread necromancy going on here.

 

[Selfcritical]

"Stick v. Blade:
First off, there are FMA systems that have ground grappling with the stick. Villibrille is an example of a system that has ground stick grappling. Systems that are based on the blade would not have grappling as this is generally unadvisable. Kalis Ilustrisimo (lit. sword Ilustrisimo) is almost completely devoid of grappling ( including standup). In terms of the helmets the DB use, they don't offer alot of protection to the head but they do however provide some protection to the face. A shot to the top of the head with a rattan stick may not stop someone but a shot to the face is another story."

Pekiti Tirsia is a bit weird here, being a very heavy blade art that places a lot emphasis on it's standing grappling techniques. Most of the PTK people I train with also do Mande Muda to improve their ground game and takedowns.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Wow, serious thread necromancy going on here.

Hey, someone told me FMA on MT was dead.....Me, I'm buying lots of jumper cables to bring this place back to life.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hey, someone told me FMA on MT was dead.....Me, I'm buying lots of jumper cables to bring this place back to life.

As to a ground game, I've gotta pipe in with a bit of 'beginners rust'.
We've done take downs, and ground work at my school, but, I couldn't tell you how "Pure Filipino" it is. I just know, it hurts.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

What are the preferred FMA empty hand strikes for groundfighting? As a newbie, I'm curious.

 

[Marvin]

When I did FMA the groundwork was about 50% pain compliance and 50%off balancing to get the person on the ground i.e. you stay up and when they fall, kick then in the head/kidneys. In one style, if we both got went to the ground it was a mad scramble to get to the top position. We had no idea about mount or guard, etc. In another style of FMA that I trained in there was some attacking on the ground. Some of that ground work may have been silat as well, but again the emphasis was on always on compliant partners.

 

[Selfcritical]

When I did FMA the groundwork was about 50% pain compliance and 50%off balancing to get the person on the ground i.e. you stay up and when they fall, kick then in the head/kidneys. In one style, if we both got went to the ground it was a mad scramble to get to the top position. We had no idea about mount or guard, etc. In another style of FMA that I trained in there was some attacking on the ground. Some of that ground work may have been silat as well, but again the emphasis was on always on compliant partners.

When I trained with tuhon gaje, whom I can say pretty definitively has no expierience with BJJ or any western submission wrestling stye, we worked guard, guard passes, and armbars in our groundwork, the proper way to maintain headlock on resisting opponent, and a few other things i'm forgetting. I did get the impression that a lot of this stuff was from the silat groundwork.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Guys,

Something to think about!

If you are a blade based system are you including in your training:

1) Concealment points for your weapon(s)
2) Concealment points of your opponent's weapon(s)
3) Standing control and balance points of your opponent
4) Methods to control the opponent's weapon or weapon containing side
5) Basic grappling techniques(unarmed)
6) Deploying your weapon(s) from disadvantaged positions
7) Basic defense/counters while on your back
8) Basic defense/counters while on your side or seated
9) Target aquistion from disadvataged positions
10) Low light training
11) Sparring scenarios
12) Standing sparring to entry and takedown vs and armed opponent


Just a few points to add to the mix! Many, many more should be put into your routine training plan.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com

 

[arnisador]

When I trained with tuhon gaje, whom I can say pretty definitively has no expierience with BJJ or any western submission wrestling stye, we worked guard, guard passes, and armbars in our groundwork, the proper way to maintain headlock on resisting opponent, and a few other things i'm forgetting. I did get the impression that a lot of this stuff was from the silat groundwork.

Jerson Tortal of the related Dekiti Tirsia Seradas system has shown me a number of ground-fighting techniques that are effective and that, I am told, are native Filipino. I hope to learn more about it later this summer when he returns to Indiana!

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Arnisador,

I met Grandmaster Tortal several years ago it was a great training experience. If you see him , please wish him the best from me.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com