Fixing the training model

[Hanzou]

I'm not so sure I count one single official fight 7 years ago as "getting his chance".

He lost within 2 minutes of the first round.

If he quit trying after one loss, that's on him.

If he wasn't allowed to try again after one loss (maybe he wasn't entertaining enough), that's on the organisation.

If the organisation officially claims that it's the single best style and sells on that then they should truly open it up and let anyone fight in whatever manner they choose and not screen out people who don't fit the MMA model.

Take boxing. Boxing organisations don't claim to be the best fighting model that can beat every other fighting method.

If I enter a boxing match (which in itself would mean I'd have to cheat the screening) and kick someone in the head, I get disqualified. It doesn't mean using my feet is a better or worse method, it means it's not allowed.

This is a flawed argument. There is nothing in the MMA ruleset that would restrict a martial art the way Boxing would.

I support boxing orgs screening out people who can't box.

I also support MMA orgs screening out people who can't MMA.

Just don't try to claim that screening process is because it's superior.

The problem is that fighters like Obasi claim to be traditional Kung Fu, when in fact if you actually look at him fight, he's using MMA and Bjj almost the entire time. I have no issue with that if you're being honest, but if you're claiming to be a real WC fighter in MMA and using anything but WC to stay alive in the Octagon, then you're simply a dishonest huckster.

 

[Hanzou]

I really have to say that's an invalid argument.

BJJ by definition meshes more with the MMA model.

What exactly is the "MMA model"?

A "pure" practitioner of an art that doesn't mesh so well simply isn't going to get the chance to prove those coaches wrong because they won't get on card.

And anyway, why would it be proving them wrong? They've been coaching MMA fighters to win MMA fights, and doing so correctly.

If I wanted to MMA, I'd get under an MMA coach, not a table tennis coach.

People have often said that sport Bjj would be ineffective in MMA due to striking negating the crazy open guards that they use. Sound familiar? Hall enters TUF utilizing a sport Bjj guard that he created and wins the competition, and then enters the UFC and is currently undefeated.

If Obasi was pulling some Ip Man crap in the MMA and actually winning fights, he'd be in the same spot Hall is in right now, and like Hall he'd be changing the game (probably even moreso because Bjj is already the grappling standard in MMA while WC isn't the standard of MMA striking). Again, this is a business, and winning equals more money on multiple levels, Hall for example is rolling in the dough from his DvDs, school, and his MMA earnings. If he beats Bj Penn this December, he's going to make even more money and get more notoriety. Even Obasi got some notoriety for being a WC guy fighting in MMA. If he would have won (actually using Wing Chun), his fame would have exploded. The simple reality is that those Kung Fu guys aren't winning in the MMA format for whatever reason, and its been that way since the beginning (even before the first UFC).

 

[Martial D]

I'm not so sure I count one single official fight 7 years ago as "getting his chance".

If he quit trying after one loss, that's on him.

If he wasn't allowed to try again after one loss (maybe he wasn't entertaining enough), that's on the organisation.

If the organisation officially claims that it's the single best style and sells on that then they should truly open it up and let anyone fight in whatever manner they choose and not screen out people who don't fit the MMA model.

Take boxing. Boxing organisations don't claim to be the best fighting model that can beat every other fighting method.

If I enter a boxing match (which in itself would mean I'd have to cheat the screening) and kick someone in the head, I get disqualified. It doesn't mean using my feet is a better or worse method, it means it's not allowed.

I support boxing orgs screening out people who can't box.

I also support MMA orgs screening out people who can't MMA.

Just don't try to claim that screening process is because it's superior.

Other than Bui Jee to the eyes there is nothing in the WC syllabus that is illegal in MMA. There was nothing stopping obasi from taking a goat stance/mansau wusau and fighting like that.

I would say that if someone did that and won, whatever org they fought for would rebook them immediately.

 

[Martial D]

but if you're claiming to be a real WC fighter in MMA and using anything but WC to stay alive in the Octagon, then you're simply a dishonest huckster.

What do you think of these guys?

 

[Hanzou]

What do you think of these guys?

No issue, they fully acknowledge that their style isnt traditional WC and that its something different.

 

[Martial D]

No issue, they fully acknowledge that their style isnt traditional WC and that its something different.

Indeed. I ask because I am in a similar boat to them. I would think a good deal of WC guys would say what I do isn't WC, but I would say that it is..as would Rackemann and co.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Indeed. I ask because I am in a similar boat to them. I would think a good deal of WC guys would say what I do isn't WC, but I would say that it is..as would Rackemann and co.

I think a lot of that happens because traditionalists want to freeze a style at an artificial point in time - usually the way the founder or some key person in the past left it. Or they get hung up on what's different about the art, and focus on that to the exclusion of anything that is similar to other arts. So then, if you allow the art to evolve naturally, or you embrace more of the universally useful bits, you start not "looking like" your primary art.

 

[punisher73]

Additional:

Let's say some grinning idiot in a dress (looking at you @gpseymour ) completely eschews the philosophy of their art and manages to blag through an MMA competition selection and then uses "pure aiki" to win.

They'll never get put on another card, ever.

Stands to reason.

The promoters simply wouldn't allow it.

And why should they?

There's a huge industry built around it, if something else is shown to beat it then people go elsewhere and what have they got then to put food on their tables and fuel in their Bentleys?


Another comparison is this:

It'd be relatively easy these days to build an electrically powered, silent track laying vehicle with laser terrain mapping and active suspension that could drive over a car without leaving a scratch. You could also make it VLGP (very low ground pressure) with traction control so it can drive over mud without sinking and spraying mud everywhere from wheelspin.

Who the hell would pay to see that at a monster truck rally?

People who go to those want impact, they want noise, they want smashing, they want destruction and flames.

They want MMA.

I disagree with this, people want exciting fights no matter how they win. If you start winning in MMA competitions, as long as its within the rules, you are going to keep fighting. IMHO, if a TMA guy was wiping the floor in MMA competitions, he would be even more marketable to sell tickets.

There is no "something else", MMA is not a "style" that cares what works only based on where it comes from. If it works, it works no matter the source. Different MMA gyms train their guys on what is working the best currently in a SPECIFIC mma ruleset. Everyone did horrible hook punches do a down opponent on the ground until Sakuraba started to drop hammer fists instead. Now you see that as a standard technique, why? Because it worked. If someone had a different technique or strategy that worked very well in MMA, you would see those gyms going out and trying to find coaches/teachers to teach their guys that skillset. How do we know this? Because its what has happened across the board everytime something new is working very well.

 

[pdg]

Ok then, here's a hypothetical.

I do TKD (in case anyone doesn't know).

I want to UFC, only using my TKD.

Where do I sign up? Do I just rock up to the arena in my dobok and have at it?

 

[Steve]

Ok then, here's a hypothetical.

I do TKD (in case anyone doesn't know).

I want to UFC, only using my TKD.

Where do I sign up? Do I just rock up to the arena in my dobok and have at it?

You'd probably work with your coach/instructor or reach out to someone like @Tez3 who is connected to the local fight scene, and ask her how one might get into a sanctioned, amateur event. She might try to talk you out of it, if you're not prepared, but then... she might let you learn the hard way.

But, if you get in there and see success, good on ya. It will work until it doesn't.

 

[drop bear]

If regular use "in the wild" is a low bar for folks who train for the purpose of that exact use, I'm not sure there's any appropriate measure for application for those folks.

 

[drop bear]

I'm lost...

Again...

Has this turned into another "if I don't see it in MMA then it doesn't work in MMA, and if it doesn't work in MMA it obviously doesn't work anywhere" argument?

More if we don't see it work under controlled conditions.

 

[drop bear]

The context of the judgement defines whether the judgement is fair or not.

There was a video of a (iirc) wing chun guy being a bit of a twat when he got rejected for an MMA fight.

But looking at it from his perspective, I fully understand where he was coming from.

He entered on the premise that he could make his art work against MMA fighters despite what people were saying.

During the selection, he was told again and again that his techniques weren't acceptable in the competition - his kicks were wrong, his punches were wrong, he should get on the ground.

Not that they wouldn't work, but that they "weren't MMA".

He was kicked out of selection before getting to actually fight.

Now that's the prerogative of the promoters, they know what they want, from feedback they know what their audience wants - it's up to them who they allow to fight.

And that is exactly where the "MMA is the benchmark for rooting out effectiveness" falls right on it's ****.

Maybe that guy would have failed, maybe he would have prevailed - we'll honestly never know because him and others like him from other arts (who want to attempt to fight pure) aren't allowed to try.

As for challenge fights, well...

The famous ones of MMA Vs TMA in China are frankly pathetic. The trad guys look out of their depth from the start. It'd be like putting me against a 6 year old and saying my art is best when I win.

Those are usually derided because y'know, why would the government allow an art that's supposed to be representative of their country get so thoroughly trounced?

They don't want their population to be effective fighters, that's why. That's why all the state sanctioned stuff is demo level wushu.

Yeah. But he wasn't kicked out of mma. He was not selected for the tuff house.

They let pretty much any mental case fight if he really wants to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We can't afford to ignore evidence that doesn't conveniently show up the way we need it. We can use it with some skepticism, and temper it with what we can get from competition formats. We don't get any good data on what happens in the wild, so developing what information we can from what happens there is better than working without it. We just have to be careful how we make use of that information.

If we ignored all anecdotal evidence, then things like your comments in another thread about joint locks being best executed in the wild by starting high and riding down the arm would be ignored. And that would be a waste of good information.

 

[Hanzou]

Ok then, here's a hypothetical.

I do TKD (in case anyone doesn't know).

I want to UFC, only using my TKD.

Where do I sign up? Do I just rock up to the arena in my dobok and have at it?

You could, and you would ran over in seconds because your gi would provide easy grips, and a lack of a ground game would make you an easy target for any sort of grappler.

 

[Tez3]

Ok then, here's a hypothetical.

I do TKD (in case anyone doesn't know).

I want to UFC, only using my TKD.

Where do I sign up? Do I just rock up to the arena in my dobok and have at it?

I'd smack you first for saying 'UFC', that's a company, the sport is MMA!!! though I bet like me every time you see 'WC' you think 'loo'!

We have fighters from all backgrounds including CMA and TKD, yes we even have some that fight in a Gi, wouldn't necessary recommend it but up to them. I would recommend a ground game of some sort, Neil Adams does good Judo for MMA people.
You would however be very silly just to rock up asking for a fight, maybe not for the reason you think though. However skilled you are or not, you should negotiate terms with the promoter, you could be a brilliant fighter but he might put you in a catchweight fight ( someone 3 stone heavier than you!), you don't want to fight for free even in an ammy fight, get a ticket deal, expenses and possibly accommodation. Some promoters will even pay a small purse, it depends but never fight for free.

 

[pdg]

Mainly facetious post alert

I'd smack you first for saying 'UFC', that's a company, the sport is MMA!!!

Toemaytow / tomahtoe

we even have some that fight in a Gi,

I don't own a gi, they come from a different country...

I would recommend a ground game of some sort

You only need a ground game if you intend to be taken down - if I'm never there why train for it?

you could be a brilliant fighter but he might put you in a catchweight fight ( someone 3 stone heavier than you!),

I thought women were supposed to reassure me that size doesn't matter???

you don't want to fight for free

But doing it for money takes all the "I have something to prove" fun out of it...




In seriousness though, is it even possible for someone, say me, to get onto a card with no links or introduction through a coach or similar?

It's not that I'm actually interested in doing it, this is a hypothetical - I don't think I'd like fighting (I like sparring, but that's different), I don't actually enjoy watching fights either...

 

[drop bear]

We can't afford to ignore evidence that doesn't conveniently show up the way we need it. We can use it with some skepticism, and temper it with what we can get from competition formats. We don't get any good data on what happens in the wild, so developing what information we can from what happens there is better than working without it. We just have to be careful how we make use of that information.

If we ignored all anecdotal evidence, then things like your comments in another thread about joint locks being best executed in the wild by starting high and riding down the arm would be ignored. And that would be a waste of good information.

Let's put it this way. I had a friend who is training tai chi. And he used magical powers to stop a confrontation.

Dead set touched the guy, used energy manipulation and interrupted his chi or something. And the guy walked off.

Go on ask how long he lasted in mma class?

 

[drop bear]

But doing it for money takes all the "I have something to prove" fun out of it...

You won't get paid. You might get travel. I know a guy who fought in the UFC and was out of pocket by the end of it.

And yes I constantly get facebook posts li
Looking for fighters. As some people are hard to match up.

 

[pdg]

Go on ask how long he lasted in mma class?

I don't really care, but I can tell you're absolutely dying to tell us, so...


How long did he last in MMA class?