At What Point To Start Training Other Arts?

[Psilent Knight]

How long will the window of opportunity last to train in this other style with the right guy?

GREAT QUESTION!! I think this question should definitely be taken into consideration when one is contemplating the possibility of cross training.

Thank You drop bear.

Take Care,
Osu!

 

[hoshin1600]

also depends on where you are in experience in the first art. if you have already invested 2 or 3 years i say get the BB first and a solid foundation. however if someone is new or only has a year in the first art i say go out and look around at other stuff. the new student may get stuck in a crappy art under a crappy teacher and not know any better. then all that time spent was a waste. the only way to know if your first art should be your primary art is to search and learn whats available and then to compare.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hello everybody,

I am presently training in Kyokushin Karate but I would like to explore a couple of other arts in order to incorporate certain principles into my MA practice. I am not a BB yet and will not be for another couple of years. At some point I would like to explore Tai Chi Chu'an, Shaolin Chin-na, Bagua and Goju ryu Karate because I want to learn, understand and incorporate their respective principles of movement, power generation and using an opponent's force against him.

For the veteran martial artists here I wanna know at what point would it be best to start learning and studying these other arts? Would it be best to wait until I am a BB in the style that I am studying now or can I start learning even before reaching BB?

Thanks everyone and Take Care,
Osu!

In my opinion, you may be making some mistaken assumptions here. You mention these other methods with the desire to learn and incorporate their principles of movement and power generation etc. into the Kyokushin that you already do. I suggest that is not a fruitful way of going about it. A good martial system should be built upon solid principles that already do a good job of handling these issues. The kyokushin methods are probably the best approach for someone training in kyokushin. Mixing stuff from other methods could very well interfere with what ought to be a well-designed methodology, leaving you with a dysfunctional mish-mash patchwork.

There are very valid reasons to study other methods, ranging from personal curiosity, to looking for the best quality instruction/instructor, to searching for what is the best system for you. But I would caution you against looking to adopt other principle-focused methods into something you are already doing.

If you decide to study other methods, then I recommend you study them for their own merits, without deliberately trying to integrate the various methods together. You may decide to switch gears and make one of the other systems into your primary study, because it makes more sense to you. If you become skilled and knowledgeable enough, you may come to understand where some of these methods could mix well and appropriately, but most people never really get there and should not be trying to do that. A good system is not just a collection of techniques. It must have a functional foundation that gives consistency in methodology, and a body of techniques that fit that methodology. Not just anything will fit the bill.

I recommend you search for the highest quality instruction, and stick with that.

 

[Buka]

In my opinion, you may be making some mistaken assumptions here. You mention these other methods with the desire to learn and incorporate their principles of movement and power generation etc. into the Kyokushin that you already do. I suggest that is not a fruitful way of going about it. A good martial system should be built upon solid principles that already do a good job of handling these issues. The kyokushin methods are probably the best approach for someone training in kyokushin. Mixing stuff from other methods could very well interfere with what ought to be a well-designed methodology, leaving you with a dysfunctional mish-mash patchwork.

There are very valid reasons to study other methods, ranging from personal curiosity, to looking for the best quality instruction/instructor, to searching for what is the best system for you. But I would caution you against looking to adopt other principle-focused methods into something you are already doing.

If you decide to study other methods, then I recommend you study them for their own merits, without deliberately trying to integrate the various methods together. You may decide to switch gears and make one of the other systems into your primary study, because it makes more sense to you. If you become skilled and knowledgeable enough, you may come to understand where some of these methods could mix well and appropriately, but most people never really get there and should not be trying to do that. A good system is not just a collection of techniques. It must have a functional foundation that gives consistency in methodology, and a body of techniques that fit that methodology. Not just anything will fit the bill.

I recommend you search for the highest quality instruction, and stick with that.

Really good advice.

 

[Buka]

Hello everybody,

I am presently training in Kyokushin Karate but I would like to explore a couple of other arts in order to incorporate certain principles into my MA practice. I am not a BB yet and will not be for another couple of years. At some point I would like to explore Tai Chi Chu'an, Shaolin Chin-na, Bagua and Goju ryu Karate because I want to learn, understand and incorporate their respective principles of movement, power generation and using an opponent's force against him.

For the veteran martial artists here I wanna know at what point would it be best to start learning and studying these other arts? Would it be best to wait until I am a BB in the style that I am studying now or can I start learning even before reaching BB?

Thanks everyone and Take Care,
Osu!

PSilent Knight, if I may ask, is this for the fighting aspect of what you do, or just for general knowledge and experience?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hello everybody,

I am presently training in Kyokushin Karate but I would like to explore a couple of other arts in order to incorporate certain principles into my MA practice. I am not a BB yet and will not be for another couple of years. At some point I would like to explore Tai Chi Chu'an, Shaolin Chin-na, Bagua and Goju ryu Karate because I want to learn, understand and incorporate their respective principles of movement, power generation and using an opponent's force against him.

For the veteran martial artists here I wanna know at what point would it be best to start learning and studying these other arts? Would it be best to wait until I am a BB in the style that I am studying now or can I start learning even before reaching BB?

Thanks everyone and Take Care,
Osu!

Just for the record Qinna (Chin-na) is not Shaolin, although there is Qinna in shaolin martial arts, but then you will find Qinna in virtually all Chinese martial arts to varying degrees. But, there are also people in China that specialize in Qinna without any other martial art affiliation. AS far a Bagua goes, great art, but to really understand it, IMO, you need to do only Bagua for a few years and nothing else. Taijiquan, to really understand it and use it properly, can be hard for many who come from hard styles like Karate and that too takes time.

Kyokushin, all by itself, needs nothing, IMO to be a rather good and effective martial art. A lot of really tough guys are in Kyokushin

 

[KangTsai]

I don't think actual experience in each art matters, cross-training wise. I mean, you can start cross-training whenever you like, assuming your schedule accommodates it. I don't see how it will be a detriment; all good martial arts have the same fundamentals.

 

[Psilent Knight]

@Buka , to answer your question it is primarily/mainly for the knowledge and experience. I'm probably one of the few people on this forum who doesn't train for self defense but instead train strictly as a lifestyle choice.

HOWEVER, as someone who is getting older and realizing the possibility of having to physically fight someone in an actual situation I am curious about the philosophies and principles of certain arts (like the ones that I have inquired about) and how they generate power without relying to much on muscular force, their respective ideas on footwork, movement and using an antagonist's own momentum against himself, etc.

And as far as Tai Chi is concerned I intend to eventually study that and practice it for it's own merits for the remainder of my years on earth.

Take Care and Have A Great Day,
Osu.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Just for the record Qinna (Chin-na) is not Shaolin, although there is Qinna in shaolin martial arts, but then you will find Qinna in virtually all Chinese martial arts to varying degrees. But, there are also people in China that specialize in Qinna without any other martial art affiliation.

Yes, I'm aware that Chin-na is not Shaolin but as far as I know there is a Shaolin slant of Chin-na which is why I used that term. I base it on a book that I have by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming which I'm sure you are familiar with.

AS far a Bagua goes, great art, but to really understand it, IMO, you need to do only Bagua for a few years and nothing else.

Okay, thanks for the heads up on this.

Taijiquan, to really understand it and use it properly, can be hard for many who come from hard styles like Karate and that too takes time.

This isn't too much of a concern for me because I am actually interested in Taijiquan for it's own sake and on it's own merits. Basically, what I mean is that I want to learn Taiji and practice it for the rest of my life if I can. I am interested in the art in general.

Kyokushin, all by itself, needs nothing, IMO to be a rather good and effective martial art. A lot of really tough guys are in Kyokushin

I am sorry to disagree but as a Kyokushin student myself I can tell you, as tough as they are, Kyokushin practitioners definitely have a few chinks in their armor and they do stand to benefit from branching out and cross training in a few other things to make their toolkit complete and make themselves better prepared for reality. IMO, the stand face-to-face and bang mentality and the I'll take a hit and return a harder one in return are very detrimental mindsets to have which can actually be deadly in a real situation outside of the dojo. Sure, they're tough. But toughness isn't the only thing that's needed to survive a real world altercation and I can assure you that there a lot of tough people buried 6 ft. in the ground because they've allowed their toughness to obscure reality for them.

Thank You for your input and have a great day,
Osu!

 

[Xue Sheng]

This isn't too much of a concern for me because I am actually interested in Taijiquan for it's own sake and on it's own merits. Basically, what I mean is that I want to learn Taiji and practice it for the rest of my life if I can. I am interested in the art in general.

Even that, if you come from a harder style, takes a long time and I am speaking as a long time student and teacher of taijiquan. I have trained with many people coming from harder styles and very few last long. The one that did was there for years and did well, if you are looking long term your biggest problems will be relaxing while doing the form.

I am sorry to disagree but as a Kyokushin student myself I can tell you, as tough as they are, Kyokushin practitioners definitely have a few chinks in their armor and they do stand to benefit from branching out and cross training in a few other things to make their toolkit complete and make themselves better prepared for reality. IMO, the stand face-to-face and bang mentality and the I'll take a hit and return a harder one in return are very detrimental mindsets to have which can actually be deadly in a real situation outside of the dojo. Sure, they're tough. But toughness isn't the only thing that's needed to survive a real world altercation and I can assure you that there a lot of tough people buried 6 ft. in the ground because they've allowed their toughness to obscure reality for them.

Thank You for your input and have a great day,
Osu!

We have different definitions of tough, but I do understand what your saying

 

[Flying Crane]

'

I am sorry to disagree but as a Kyokushin student myself I can tell you, as tough as they are, Kyokushin practitioners definitely have a few chinks in their armor and they do stand to benefit from branching out and cross training in a few other things to make their toolkit complete and make themselves better prepared for reality. IMO, the stand face-to-face and bang mentality and the I'll take a hit and return a harder one in return are very detrimental mindsets to have which can actually be deadly in a real situation outside of the dojo. Sure, they're tough. But toughness isn't the only thing that's needed to survive a real world altercation and I can assure you that there a lot of tough people buried 6 ft. in the ground because they've allowed their toughness to obscure reality for them.

Thank You for your input and have a great day,
Osu!

It may be that the way kyokushin structures and approaches training and combat engagement is not he best fit for you. I do believe it can be fruitful to explore different systems and different teachers in order to find what is best for you. Perhaps kyokushin is not the best for you.

In that case, do explore other things, but not with the goal of importing aspects in an attempt to "fix" kyokushin. Rather, look for a method that is a better fit for you.

Be aware that good teachers in bagua, for example, are rare. You might find someone who can teach you the gross movements of the forms, but does not really understand the meat and methods of the system. If the instruction is poor, even if the system itself may be a better fit for you, it is not a better choice.

 

[Flying Crane]

; all good martial arts have the same fundamentals.

Well, maybe, and yes, and no.

Even systems that have similar fundamental principles can go about the training process in such different ways as to make them incompatible. And some principles that sound like the same thing may be interpreted and enacted in very different ways.

And then there are the vast ocean of "teachers" who have no business teaching, and don't understand the principles at all, even if they can talk a good talk.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, maybe, and yes, and no.

Even systems that have similar fundamental principles can go about the training process in such different ways as to make them incompatible. And some principles that sound like the same thing may be interpreted and enacted in very different ways.

And then there are the vast ocean of "teachers" who have no business teaching, and don't understand the principles at all, even if they can talk a good talk.

Which is exactly why I said if your going to seriously train bagua you need to only train bagua for a few years and nothing else.

 

[Flying Crane]

Which is exactly why I said if your going to seriously train bagua you need to only train bagua for a few years and nothing else.

Exactly. Bagua in particular is a system with a lot of subtlety and takes dedicated practice to understand. It's not something that can be dabbled in and experimented with for a short time and then brought in and incorporated within the context of another system.

Really, I suspect that every system is pretty sophisticated and has a lot of subtlety and would have the same issues as bagua.

 

[Buka]

@Buka , to answer your question it is primarily/mainly for the knowledge and experience. I'm probably one of the few people on this forum who doesn't train for self defense but instead train strictly as a lifestyle choice.

HOWEVER, as someone who is getting older and realizing the possibility of having to physically fight someone in an actual situation I am curious about the philosophies and principles of certain arts (like the ones that I have inquired about) and how they generate power without relying to much on muscular force, their respective ideas on footwork, movement and using an antagonist's own momentum against himself, etc.

And as far as Tai Chi is concerned I intend to eventually study that and practice it for it's own merits for the remainder of my years on earth.

Take Care and Have A Great Day,
Osu.

I know where you're coming from, I no longer train for self defense, either.

As for Tai-chi.....I think you'll find it pretty darn awesome.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly. Bagua in particular is a system with a lot of subtlety and takes dedicated practice to understand. It's not something that can be dabbled in and experimented with for a short time and then brought in and incorporated within the context of another system.

Really, I suspect that every system is pretty sophisticated and has a lot of subtlety and would have the same issues as bagua.

That is probably true of all all systems, as you say. At the same time, there is often much that can be incorporated within the context of another system quite readily. It doesn't even require real depth of understanding of the donor art, just a bit of understanding of a principle or two that work well with (and can be adapted to) the primary system. The bits of FMA that have influenced me don't look like FMA anymore, and probably miss some of the principles used in FMA. However, borrowing a bit of FMA and outfitting it with the principles of NGA gives me something "new" (to me, thus the quotes) to work with. The result is not FMA by anyone's reckoning. If anything, it is NGA, though it might just be a bit of Gerry-Fu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know where you're coming from, I no longer train for self defense, either.

You know, as I think back on it, I've gone through some phases on that. My primary art is SD-focused, but my training has not always been. Every time I reach a point where I want to work on something technical in the art, I step away from the SD focus for a while and enjoy the intellectual pursuit. Then I will start to recognize some weaknesses in my SD areas (not new ones, just new recognition), and go back to SD work. Maybe someday I'll be satisfied with the intellectual pursuit, alone. That's certainly a large part of why I teach.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is probably true of all all systems, as you say. At the same time, there is often much that can be incorporated within the context of another system quite readily. It doesn't even require real depth of understanding of the donor art, just a bit of understanding of a principle or two that work well with (and can be adapted to) the primary system. The bits of FMA that have influenced me don't look like FMA anymore, and probably miss some of the principles used in FMA. However, borrowing a bit of FMA and outfitting it with the principles of NGA gives me something "new" (to me, thus the quotes) to work with. The result is not FMA by anyone's reckoning. If anything, it is NGA, though it might just be a bit of Gerry-Fu.

It depends on what it is you are trying to mix, and what you are trying to accomplish by doing so. "Fixing" one system by mixing in fundamental principles from another system is not likely to work well. That is the impression I got from the OP, in what he is thinking of.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Just train Kyokushin Karate until you master it then go to the other Martial arts that you want my instructor was 7 or 8 degree in Kenpo before he took FMA he also took juijutsu

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is probably true of all all systems, as you say. At the same time, there is often much that can be incorporated within the context of another system quite readily. It doesn't even require real depth of understanding of the donor art, just a bit of understanding of a principle or two that work well with (and can be adapted to) the primary system. The bits of FMA that have influenced me don't look like FMA anymore, and probably miss some of the principles used in FMA. However, borrowing a bit of FMA and outfitting it with the principles of NGA gives me something "new" (to me, thus the quotes) to work with. The result is not FMA by anyone's reckoning. If anything, it is NGA, though it might just be a bit of Gerry-Fu.

I've trained a few Styles of MA, most CMA, and one of those was Bagauzhang and admittedly it may just be me, but of all the styles I tried or trained Bagua is an animal all its own. I truly enjoyed the style, but for me to do it justice I would have had to stop Taiji and Xingyi and at my age I was not sure it was worth it. However with that said, I still dabble in Bagua.

But as flying crane said, finding a teacher that truly knows the style is not all that easy. There are a lot the teach bagua, but not all know bagua