Five Martial Arts Principles

[Primal Monk]

I've had the exact same principles in mind, but saw it nicely represented in the Kengan Asura manga.

I would add "Physical Fitness", but besides that, this seems like a complete diagram.

 

[Flying Crane]

Jeezuz. Just...jeezuz...

 

[geezer]

Jeezuz. Just...jeezuz...

Yes indeed! That's the most important principle that this brings to mind. Also known as the face-palm principle...

...demonstrated below by Pirate Hunter Zoro:
http://i26.tinypic.com/ojng4w.jpg

And again by Inuyasha:
https://orig00.deviantart.net/d7f7/f/2012/204/8/f/inuyasha_facepalm_by_animalsandanime-d58dapf.jpg

...also by Ichigo:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/137152/3100116-9296622235-bleac.jpg

...Krillin
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LlzMs3Btiv0/hqdefault.jpg

....need I go on?

 

[Primal Monk]

I only know that if you stiffen your entire body at the right time at impact, you can double or quadruple the force because you lose no kinetic transfer and effectively put your entire weight behind it.
I also know that when moving your footwork should be as changeable as possible, as in, you can move anyway anywhere at any moment. Ideally.
I also know that when grappling, locking, and for certain defenses and evasions, you want a soft, flexible body, (and strong obviously) so you can be receptive to your opponents movements/position in that moment and use them against him or maneuver around them rather than butt into him and create chaos. As well, being flexible is an advantage here.
I also know that you want to redirect and manipulate your opponent's body to use his own force and movements against him, and to find the weak points in his power so you can overwhelm and throw him completely out of whack. Prevent him from generating torque and speed and collapse in at his weakest moments in his movements to take control of his body.

 

[Primal Monk]

Elitism and snobbishness gets you nowhere, when you are actually inferior. It should be called Martial Science or Martial Mastery. If chemistry principles or lessons were in a children's cartoon, it would be legitimate either way. Same with anything. The writers of the manga have over 10 years of experience (at least two of them do) and they'll go to matches to learn more.
The 'repressed' human psyche finds outlet in creative works; and in accord with ancient and now Jungian psychology, the human unconscious is largely understood as a collective one. With this in mind, I look at creative works as an expression of locked human potential attempting to signal itself into existence. The more intense and volumous the genre or species of fiction, the more likely that human potential is severely 'repressed'/suppressed.
"The drive to achieve or have something is not the ability to do so" some may say. But that is incredibly unAmerican, unManly, and are made by people who are like crabs in a bucket. I spit on those fools.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Elitism and snobbishness gets you nowhere, when you are actually inferior. It should be called Martial Science or Martial Mastery. If chemistry principles or lessons were in a children's cartoon, it would be legitimate either way. Same with anything. The writers of the manga have over 10 years of experience (at least two of them do) and they'll go to matches to learn more.
The 'repressed' human psyche finds outlet in creative works; and in accord with ancient and now Jungian psychology, the human unconscious is largely understood as a collective one. With this in mind, I look at creative works as an expression of locked human potential attempting to signal itself into existence. The more intense and volumous the genre or species of fiction, the more likely that human potential is severely 'repressed'/suppressed.
"The drive to achieve or have something is not the ability to do so" some may say. But that is incredibly unAmerican, unManly, and are made by people who are like crabs in a bucket. I spit on those fools.

The problem with works of fiction is that even if they include "scientific" elements into them, they often leave key points out that make the science they discuss impossible. Just as an example, just look at how often you see someone in a cartoon wielding a huge heavy weapon at high speed. Even if you could explain how they would have the strength to swing around something so heavy, the laws of physics will tell you that it is impossible, due to the way forces work. According to Newton's third law of motion "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". In other words, if you swing around a huge heavy weapon it will generate centrifugal force that your body has to then absorb in equal measure. Get a heavy enough weapon swinging fast enough and you can literally tear your own arms off just by swinging it, no matter how strong you are. Like it or not, there is a huge difference between what works in fiction and what works in reality, no matter how much creativity you put into it.

 

[Primal Monk]

Strong isn't strong. A gymnast can walk into the gym for the first time and deadlift 400 lbs. Lifting heavy weights isn't what makes you strong. A bunch of big muscles with atrophied or overall **** connective tissues and poor smaller muscle strength can't transmit the necessary forces required. You always hear this ******** physics, when it's grade school level comprehension of physics. For example: something of the number 2000 N is transmitted through your SI Joint when performing a weighted squat. Big number. Yet a shoulder is torn instead. What?
Think a little deeper about it and you'll realize that human potential is limited by will, knowledge, wisdom and imagination, not physics. A powerlifter or strongman can't do what a gymnast can. A gymnast can do what a powerlifter or strongman of similar weight can (relatively, and with minimal training they can shore up the difference). The body can be developed to an abnormally complete standard. Besides that are the fact that a 120 lb mother can lift a car when her child is underneath it, and be uninjured afterword. Access to this would entail what? You don't know, but someone does, and has done it.

You also try to spin what I say into a 2D understanding of me while injecting your own shortcomings in understanding reality. I'm not saying that because fiction exists of it, it can exist in the real world. I am saying that, because so much and so intently does it exist, there is a strong enough drive behind it to push human ability much further than any other aspect of a human. Just think, "Animal strength and reflex" if you want a clearer picture of what a raw and low intelligence being can achieve. Science isn't science when they start abstracting and applying what they see in extremely simple systems and objects onto complex systems and objects, whilst never challenging their perceptions or opinions of the complex systems and objects, thus reducing them to their own simplistic understanding. I have a low regard for modern science. They are haughty and elitist, and cling to their status as "science" to give themselves the authority to determine the true and false of anything and everything, often whilst borrowing the opinion of other scientists rather than forming their own from the original science experiments, observations and systematic modeling. They then explain away reality that contradicts their views to protect their pride and authority. Socio-politico at its best.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Primal Monk.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Think a little deeper about it and you'll realize that human potential is limited by will, knowledge, wisdom and imagination, not physics. A powerlifter or strongman can't do what a gymnast can. A gymnast can do what a powerlifter or strongman of similar weight can (relatively, and with minimal training they can shore up the difference). The body can be developed to an abnormally complete standard.

If that is true and your potential as a human being is only limited by your will, I challenge you to do Saitama's workout from One Punch Man. 100 pushups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats and a 10k run every single day for 3 years. I guarantee that your body will literally destroy itself before you achieve the strength to punch through a wall. You could have the strongest will and imagination in the world, but the human body does have limits.

 

[Primal Monk]

Once again, you misrepresent what I've said with these prepared responses based on bias and prejudices that you can't seem to put aside to have a direct conversation with someone. Must I speak to you through your own cultural lense, and handicap myself severely in order to evoke a non-cookie cutter response?

You neglect the concepts of wisdom and knowledge in favor of responding to the flavor of my initial post, which was a snapshot from a manga of which I asked what people thought of the principles outlined. I also explained that I already held the principles in my mind prior to seeing them in the manga. You seem to be responding to an imagined nostalgic and naive emotional charge rather than look at what I'm saying explicitly. Physics do indeed exist, but their application to the human body is simplistic and unsophisticated in the context of training and combat.

Here is a link showing how a pulley system can result in lifting a 90 kg object with 15 kg of human force: The 6:1 Pulley System - ropebook

Here's a modified version of the original picture at the top, setting what I believe to be the human potential as it is relative to elite human athletes/sportsman:

 

[Primal Monk]

Hello to you Buka.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Once again, you misrepresent what I've said with these prepared responses based on bias and prejudices that you can't seem to put aside to have a direct conversation with someone. Must I speak to you through your own cultural lense, and handicap myself severely in order to evoke a non-cookie cutter response?

You neglect the concepts of wisdom and knowledge in favor of responding to the flavor of my initial post, which was a snapshot from a manga of which I asked what people thought of the principles outlined. I also explained that I already held the principles in my mind prior to seeing them in the manga. You seem to be responding to an imagined nostalgic and naive emotional charge rather than look at what I'm saying explicitly. Physics do indeed exist, but their application to the human body is simplistic and unsophisticated in the context of training and combat.

Here is a link showing how a pulley system can result in lifting a 90 kg object with 15 kg of human force: The 6:1 Pulley System - ropebook

Here's a modified version of the original picture at the top, setting what I believe to be the human potential as it is relative to elite human athletes/sportsman:

View attachment 21226

Right now you are saying all these fancy words that I'm not sure you fully understand the meaning of. This has nothing to do with my bias and prejudices, and what exactly do you mean by my "cultural lense"? Do you even know what that means? Anyway, let's move on. You asked before how a 120lb mother is able to lift a car to save her child, and although the true answer still eludes scientists, there are a few theories, one being a severe adrenaline rush, which effectively makes your body much more efficient by increasing your heart rate, increasing blood pressure and expanding the air passages in your lungs. All this allows more oxygen to get to your muscles, letting them work harder than normal. However, prolonged exposure to high adrenaline can have serious consequences for your health, as anyone with high blood pressure will tell you. Scientists estimate that even when exercising as hard as we can, your average person only uses around 60% of their total muscle mass, and an athlete uses around 80%. So yes, you could theoretically become stronger just through willpower, but chances are you couldn't sustain it for long periods of time without your cardiovascular system giving out.

Anyway, what do I think about the principles outlined? There are all things I have seen and heard of before, although it's hard to tell just how effective they are in a real combat situation. While all the principles outlined in your picture are backed up by physics and biomechanics, there is a big difference between theoretically talking about them, and applying them in combat. They sound impressive and mystical which is precisely why they are used in fantasy settings, but at the end of the day there are very few people in the world who can actually make use of them.

 

[Primal Monk]

I'm not disagreeing about the rarity or difficulty of it. I just don't see how talking about 4 or 5 simple principles for a fighting style was ridiculous.
The bias is your selective attention on the willpower aspect of it, when I mentioned knowledge, wisdom and imagination, which adds up to methodology. This is due to your experience of youth who think they can accomplish anything through shear willpower after watching fiction. This is what is meant. You ignore what I say and recall all the youth that make that mistake after viewing the corresponding stimulus (eastern fiction), as I presented a snippet of.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm not disagreeing about the rarity or difficulty of it. I just don't see how talking about 4 or 5 simple principles for a fighting style was ridiculous.
The bias is your selective attention on the willpower aspect of it, when I mentioned knowledge, wisdom and imagination, which adds up to methodology. This is due to your experience of youth who think they can accomplish anything through shear willpower after watching fiction. This is what is meant. You ignore what I say and recall all the youth that make that mistake after viewing the corresponding stimulus (eastern fiction), as I presented a snippet of.

Because it is very simplified, and suggesting that these are separate things, while in reality they intermingle, and aren't as easily separated as the diagram would suggest.

Your responses also very much suggest elitism and snobbishness, which you complained about. A tad hypocritical.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm not disagreeing about the rarity or difficulty of it. I just don't see how talking about 4 or 5 simple principles for a fighting style was ridiculous.
The bias is your selective attention on the willpower aspect of it, when I mentioned knowledge, wisdom and imagination, which adds up to methodology. This is due to your experience of youth who think they can accomplish anything through shear willpower after watching fiction. This is what is meant. You ignore what I say and recall all the youth that make that mistake after viewing the corresponding stimulus (eastern fiction), as I presented a snippet of.

If the principles you talk about are so simple everyone would be able to manage them. As it is, the ability to use those principles together in combat is so rare that many people believe they are a load of mystical nonsense peddled by charlatans.

 

[frank raud]

Strong isn't strong. A gymnast can walk into the gym for the first time and deadlift 400 lbs.

Of course, you have examples of an untrained lifter walking into a gym and lifting 2.5 to 3 times bodyweight? Happens all the time, right?

 

[Primal Monk]

Because it is very simplified, and suggesting that these are separate things, while in reality they intermingle, and aren't as easily separated as the diagram would suggest.

Your responses also very much suggest elitism and snobbishness, which you complained about. A tad hypocritical.

It's essentially hypocritical if I act elitist and snobbish by borrowed authority to dismiss the possibility of something, which is the context of the accusation. I'm challenging held beliefs in a confrontational and critical manner rather than with leading questions and comments (yielding and manipulative manner). It's hypercritical or just critical, not hypocritical.

If the principles you talk about are so simple everyone would be able to manage them. As it is, the ability to use those principles together in combat is so rare that many people believe they are a load of mystical nonsense peddled by charlatans.

Same could be said about Zen or the 'Enlightened'. They'll tell you you aren't enlightened, or some mystical nonsense, and then get accused of being charlatans (justified or not).
Speaking of Zen; principles are easier to meditate on and obsessively ponder and seek the perception of directly. Thus they are necessary. When something seems over-complicated, you get to ask yourself what the principles of fighting are and then simplify the learning process (i.e. improve more quickly). Principles are essential for something where getting your cluttered head out of the way is essential: Fighting.

Innovation requires asking obvious questions and getting non-obvious answers i.e. deep thinking e.g. philosophy; if you want to communicate or share the innovation that is. Requiring something less simple is a handicap in the long run. Sophisticated training of the body is great, since it's built in and creates unique effectiveness, but the mind should be simple and even primal.

 

[Primal Monk]

Of course, you have examples of an untrained lifter walking into a gym and lifting 2.5 to 3 times bodyweight? Happens all the time, right?

Not really no. Gymnasts can be found often with a strong posterior chain necessary for heavy deadlifts though. The point was about the translatability of certain disciplines. Heavy lifters can't do gymnastics but gymnasts can lift heavy (besides squats). It's asymmetric which is important to identify so that you can train effectively. If that information is irrelevant to you it's because you don't care about effectiveness.

 

[frank raud]

Not really no. Gymnasts can be found often with a strong posterior chain necessary for heavy deadlifts though. The point was about the translatability of certain disciplines. Heavy lifters can't do gymnastics but gymnasts can lift heavy (besides squats). It's asymmetric which is important to identify so that you can train effectively. If that information is irrelevant to you it's because you don't care about effectiveness.

So your real world example isn't. It' theoretically possible, but it still fails the smell test
Could someone with strength and flexibility be able to do over double bodyweight after several months of training? Quite likely
Walk in off the street and do it first time? I will gladly put money against it.

 

[Primal Monk]

So your real world example isn't. It' theoretically possible, but it still fails the smell test
Could someone with strength and flexibility be able to do over double bodyweight after several months of training? Quite likely
Walk in off the street and do it first time? I will gladly put money against it.

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