First Star Trek understood freedom...

[billc]

Here is a breakdown of political issues in some of the episodes of the first Star Trek television show...

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/a...s-of-star-trek-patterns-of-force/#more-571724

Patterns of Force

On its surface, you might think a story about Nazis is left wing. After all, Hollywood wants you to believe the Nazis were a right-wing phenomenon equivalent to Libertarianism/ Conservatism. This is laughable, as the national socialist Nazis were everything the left claims to love. Yet, many people still ignorantly accept the idea the Nazis were rightists rather than leftists because that’s what they’ve been taught by leftist teachers. So it shouldn’t surprise us if a show about Nazis was meant as an attack on conservatives.
But “Patterns of Force” isn’t actually an anti-Nazi story. Rather, it’s a warning against the idea of the “benign” totalitarian government. To see this, we need only look at the episode’s payoff scene where Kirk questions Gill after McCoy counteracts the drugs given to Gill. Kirk angrily demands to know why Gill violated the Prime Directive (non-interference in alien worlds). Gill answers that the Ekosians were a divided people and Gill thought he could unify them using the Nazi model. Kirk then asks why Gill picked the Nazis, who were cruel and murderous. Gill (with an assist from Spock) explains that the Nazis, while ruthless, were highly efficient and highly organized. Gill believed he could recreate the good parts of Nazi Germany without the bad parts by being a benign dictator. Here’s the transcript:

KIRK: Gill. Gill, why did you abandon your mission? Why did you interfere with this culture?
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?
SPOCK: Perhaps Gill felt that such a state, run benignly, could accomplish its efficiency without sadism.
KIRK: Why, Gill? Why?
GILL: Worked. At first it worked. Then Melakon began take over. Used the. Gave me the drug.
​

This is not a liberal message. To the contrary, it is a fundamentally conservative message.
Liberals desire powerful government. They believe that even totalitarian regimes can be good so long as they are run benignly. Indeed, you’ll often hear liberals suggest that we should suspend things like rule of law and free elections or give the state tremendous power so it can achieve some supposedly noble goal that can’t be achieved the legal way.
Conservatives, on the other hand, know you cannot give power to one person without taking away freedom from another, and they understand that what sounds like benign power to some is tyranny to others. They also understand that when too much power is given, tyranny will always follow. That’s the point of Lord Acton’s most famous quote: “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
This difference in belief is a fundamental difference between conservative and liberal thinking.

And while it is true that many liberal stories involve people fighting against oppressive governments, it is important to note that they rarely (if ever) criticize the concentration of power itself. Instead, they merely attack those who would misuse the power, i.e. those who would use the power for purposes of which the liberals don’t approve; this is why oppressive governments in liberal stories are always police states, military dictatorships or theocracies. And in many cases, the resolution of the story involves the replacement of the evil government with a benign council of experts or bleeding hearts who will then use that same monolithic power “to help people.”

I still think the original Star Trek series is the best...

 

[Jenna]

The Federation can be seen as the ultimate in globalisation. I think at a push there are several concepts from Roddenberry that were not so far from the ideals of Marx. Yet I think the entire premise was enacted with far greater equitability than any communist regime ever managed to implement. I think, soured by currency and the unpleasant side of capitalism in the 60s the vision of Roddenberry went far further then simple Marxism. Anyway, I do not believe Roddenberry utilised Marx as a driver and but rather his vision for a more equitable society. How much more equitable could it possibly be when it operated without cash? Also, by undermining the autocracy of pharma companies and making cures readily available to the populus, healthcare was free (cf. Obama, lol) and/or rendered irrelevant. I like that idea too. I did not like Roddenberry for his representation of women though and but I would forgive him as it was a product of the era I think. Anyway, TNG ftw.

 

[Tez3]

Of course it could be that you're reading too much into it and it was just made purely for entertainment and commercial reasons. these I believe are the same people and their ilk who think the Muppets espouse and promote communism and probably think the clouds in the Lion King aare telling people to worship the devil.

It does however give Bili another chance to walk over the graves of those killed by the right wing Nazis as well as those who died and suffered fighting them. Believing that everything bad that happens in this world is the fault of the 'left wing' is a complete nonsense because it's absolving those who have other political views from any responsiblity for their actions.

Most of what you find in Star Trek you will also find in a lot of SF books and films. The idea of a moneyless society is a common theme.

 

[billc]

To highlight a main point...

And while it is true that many liberal stories involve people fighting against oppressive governments, it is important to note that they rarely (if ever) criticize the concentration of power itself. Instead, they merely attack those who would misuse the power, i.e. those who would use the power for purposes of which the liberals don’t approve; this is why oppressive governments in liberal stories are always police states, military dictatorships or theocracies. And in many cases, the resolution of the story involves the replacement of the evil government with a benign council of experts or bleeding hearts who will then use that same monolithic power “to help people.”

I think other discussions on the healthcare reform bill and forcing government mandated options on religous institutions, the administering birth control to children without the knowledge or consent of the parents, and the stifling of free speech in Norway and Italy, from other threads, is the target of this part of thread...

 

[billc]

I think the borg collective could be seen as the perfect socialist, OWS society. There are no rich people, everyone is equal, and each recieves according to their needs, and each gives according to their ability. They have free healthcare, and free education. There are no castes, I know you say "What about the borg queen," the borg queen was simply a way to personalize the borg for the sake of the movie. Even better there is no inequality based on race or sex. What could be more perfect?:angel:


The closing paragraph of the article sums things up nicely...

“Patterns of Force” rejects this as faulty logic. It warns that you cannot have a benign dictator. It warns the problem is the concentration of power itself, because the misuse of that power is inevitable. And no matter what the intentions may be for the creation of the state, the very concentration of that much power will attract someone who will misuse the power for evil.

 

[Jenna]

I think any closed society, commune, group or party functions per Borg paradigm where it is self-serving and is not mindful of its impact upon other societies, communes, groups or parties. I think the act of Borg assimilation can represent the act not only of de-individualisation and but of plundering resources. I think this is applicable to capitalism at its unethical extremities.

Borg frighten me and always have since I first watched because of their relentlessness. Were an individual -or individual organisation- to have Borg attributes of assimilation, adaptability and strength which is a multiple of the sum of its parts then I should think they would be impossible to defeat. OWS on the other hand are easier to defeat by a combination of their own idiocy, cleverly-concocted violent peripheral distractions and corporate and vested-interest infiltration. From there, simple division and destruction from within occurs. In a way I think this was what Jean Luc managed to achieve with the Borg cube. There are no Jean Lucs here on Earth though. I would swoon if I ever found one

 

[billc]

What's wrong with Captain Kirk?

 

[Steve]

The federation is a society in which everyone has access to health care, there is no greed, poverty or homelessness and there is no money. No one wants for anything. There is no poverty. WTH are you talking about? If the Federation of Planets isn't a utopian socialist society, it's at least post-capitalist.

There are situations in which "credits" are traded, people gamble or greed is indicated in a story line, but these are usually either villains or on the fringes of Federation space, such as in Deep Space 9.




Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.

 

[billc]

I agree that the federation is a utopia, it can't exist. The episode at the start of the thread explains exactly why the federation and it's socialism won't work. For example, a starship captain, with the power and responsiblities recieves no more or less than the guy who repairs the lights in the corridors? The federation, would end up crashing and burning because of all the dependents on federation handouts, who wouldn't actually contribute, and then as things fell apart, the apparatus set up to give out all the benefits would be used to control the population by those motivated to control other people. As was pointed out in the episode.

 

[Steve]

The military works much like this. An E-3 earns the same amount of money per month whether he's a cook or a door gunner. The Major commanding the munitions squadron makes the same amount of money as the Major commanding the supply squadron.

While we have money in our society, the military works pretty well, in many ways, as a functioning socialist group. It's also very easy to see where Gene Roddenberry drew his inspiration.

Some other comparisons are that, within the military community there is universal healthcare, even for dependents. The pay structure is public. All contribute according to their ability. School's virtually free, and for those willing and able, I am pretty sure that the military still offers a bootstrap program where they pay you your salary in addition to all school fees.

Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

And I'm going to say again, I don't ever click on your links. If you don't say it in your posts, it's invisible to me. I'm not interested in giving the click throughs to blatant propaganda websites if I can help it.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm not much of a Trekkie, I've seen a bunch of episodes of TOS and TNG, and all the movies, but thats about it. There are probably plenty of them in both those series I have missed, so I could be off base here, I dunno...

But it seems to me that the reason "Socialism" as has been pointed out that the Federation has, and we lack, probably comes from the fact that no one has to want for anything. If I desire "earl grey, Hot" I just tell it to the box on the wall and I get it... I don't have to work for it, it doesn't cost me anything... I think the model for these "replicators" as they are used in Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age" is probably more along the lines of how a replicator system, should ever one be created, would work in real life... and it wouldn't create a Socialist Utopia.

 

[billc]

A Major stills gets more pay than any E3 regardless of wether the E3 risks his life in the infantry in front line combat or the Major is in supply, safely in the United States.

Yes, go to any V.A. hospital and then brag about the quality of health care given to our vets.

You were in the military so you definitely know that each gives to his ability, especially the ones who don't give to their ability and still get the same pay as the ones who go to the top military schools and take the most dangerous assignments. And the pay for the same job in the civillian field is about 10 times what it is in the millitary, just ask the spec. ops. guys who work in private security companies.

If the star trek universe was real, the federation would have 3rd rate star ships and would barely be able to feed it's people. It would be star ships or feeding the people, they wouldn't be able to do both since the socialist system would destroy any motivation the majority of citizens would have to succeed. Why go off into the stars and risk combat with the warriors of the klingon empire when you can just stay on your home planet, have free food, healthcare and entertainment and no risk.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

What makes the federation possible is post-scarcity. When enough people can agree on what they want and direct that force toward a project that expresses what they want, they can get what they want. When you have individuality trumping cooperation you get no further than your own two hands can take you. Even the most stoic individualists have to balance some interdependence and realize the occasional necessity of cooperation. My "left wing" side is frustrated at the wasted potential but my "right wing" side gives me a healthy dose of scepticism. What works is an organic, complex balancing act that has to be actively maintained and preserved. You can't pick one side or the other, you can't right certain injustices without causing a multitude of others. To form the federation massive atrocities would have to be committed and forgotten.

 

[billc]

Actually, the military doesn't really work all that well. The equipment and machines are always more expensive to make and of inferior quality to civillian articles. The work hours are long, the pay is poor and the food can be pretty bad. The only reason our military is effective, is because when the military screws up, our people get killed. The people who get killed have relatives who demand answers from elected officials and the problems eventually get addressed. Much like the problem with the Humvees at the start of the Iraq war. They were not the right vehicle for that war at that time, so they eventually had to be armored differently. The process of armoring those vehicles sped up when the civillian family members complained to the political class and threatened to embarrass them. The military is just as inefficient and messed up as any other government system.

 

[Steve]

A Major stills gets more pay than any E3 regardless of wether the E3 risks his life in the infantry in front line combat or the Major is in supply, safely in the United States.

That's right. All majors, regardless of the technical difficulty or inherent danger of their role.

Yes, go to any V.A. hospital and then brag about the quality of health care given to our vets.

Two things. First, we're not talking about vets. We're talking about active duty military and their dependents.

Second, vets are STILL not being taken care of, and this is a very sore point for me. Bush KNEW that we were being flooded with disabled vets in numbers not seen since Vietnam, and yet the VA received budget increases so minuscule that they didn't even keep up with inflation, much less acknowledge the dramatic increase in demands for services that include everything from vocational rehabilitation to drug/alcohol treatments to funding the hospitals so that they are staffed adequately to care for our vets. Things have improved over the last couple years, but damn, it's a huge hole to pull out of. Anybody at all close to people who are disabled saw this coming for years before the system started bursting at the seams.

You were in the military so you definitely know that each gives to his ability, especially the ones who don't give to their ability and still get the same pay as the ones who go to the top military schools and take the most dangerous assignments. And the pay for the same job in the civillian field is about 10 times what it is in the millitary, just ask the spec. ops. guys who work in private security companies.

There's a lot of elitism in the military, and psychologically speaking, that's critical for the guys and gals at most risk. I was in the air force, and I do know that the pilots rely on the crew chiefs and the flight crews to ensure that the planes are ready to go. The munitions troops ensure that the bombs, missiles and other arms are loaded correctly and will function as designed. The fuel specialist gets the jet fuel to the line, the supply guy makes sure that everyone is fully provisioned, and the cooks feed us well.

As a munitions guy, I depended on the motor pool to keep the jammers, forklifts, cranes, bobcats, trucks and 40 ft trailers were all working. It's an interdependent ecosystem and it works pretty darn well. I don't know what branch you were in, but the USAF was well run at every base I was at.

I was an E4 when I got out. And I got paid the same as the E4 who drove the fuel, the E4 who cooked my breakfast or the E4 who hooked me up with a few extra pair of nomex gloves when I need them out of supply. I got paid the same as the E4 who worked in the dispensary, and the E4 who worked in what was then called CBPO (base operations).

Not a perfect communist model, but given the rank structure, it's pretty much what some fear mongers are putting out as the worst kind of socialism.

If the star trek universe was real, the federation would have 3rd rate star ships and would barely be able to feed it's people. It would be star ships or feeding the people, they wouldn't be able to do both since the socialist system would destroy any motivation the majority of citizens would have to succeed. Why go off into the stars and risk combat with the warriors of the klingon empire when you can just stay on your home planet, have free food, healthcare and entertainment and no risk.

Again, you're talking about things that are outside of "the military." The star ship might or might not be the best, top of the line. But that would be because there is a Congress in the Federation (which I'm not sure they had).

The USAF, if anything, takes what they're given whether inferior or not, and makes it work. Once again, I see the military units themselves as very practical and they should be commended for doing what they need to do with what they are given.

In other words, your argument isn't as much a criticism against our military structure (which is, I believe, the same as practically every other military structure in the world now and throughout history). It's a criticism of our government, specifically of Congress.


Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.

 

[billc]

Yes, but the e4 in the army, in the infantry, humping a 50 pound ruck through the mountains of afganistan is making less than the major, who works in the supply company, in the United states. Captain Picard, if the theory of star trek is to be believed, in the command of the starship enterprise, traveling around the galaxy, killing bad guys, gets the same stuff that the supply clerk at the federation star base on Earth gets. That is why it is a fictional system in the movies and why it would never work for real. The incentives motivate the worst of human behavior, lazyness, a lack of adventurousness, it makes one risk averse. At the same time it allows those few who are motivated, by power and control, a population that is easy to control, for their own purposes.

 

[Makalakumu]

What's the difference between the Star Trek Federation and the Zeitgiest movement?

 

[Ken Morgan]

three words....

Seven of Nine.
View attachment $jeri_ryan-7of9_005_preview.jpg

 

[Bob Hubbard]

three words....

Seven of Nine.
View attachment 16097

Nickname: Two of Dees.

 

[Makalakumu]

three words....

Seven of Nine.
View attachment 16097

Assimilate me!