Firearms and Ninjutsu

Cryozombie

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I know that in the Bujinkan we practice techniques "against" firearms, how many of you have training WITH them in your curriculums? Drawing, positioning, firing... and if you do, are they based off of traditional teachings, or were they modern "add ons"

Im talking strictly "Ninjutsu" styles... Buj, Genbukan, Toshindo... etc...
 

Dale Seago

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I do, though it's not mandatory training for those in the dojo who have no interest in firearms. . .and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel, it shouldn't be surprising that there are some who aren't interested in them. The methods are essentially henka, adaptations of things done with traditional weapons.
 

rutherford

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Training against and with firearms is part of our curriculum. I haven't been exposed to any of it, so I can't comment on the source.
 

Kreth

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Dale Seago said:
and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel...
Nothing like a police state...
 

Bigshadow

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Technopunk said:
I know that in the Bujinkan we practice techniques "against" firearms, how many of you have training WITH them in your curriculums? Drawing, positioning, firing... and if you do, are they based off of traditional teachings, or were they modern "add ons"

Im talking strictly "Ninjutsu" styles... Buj, Genbukan, Toshindo... etc...
We have worked a little weapons retention using a handgun, but nothing I would call firearms specific training. I have been discussing with the instructor a field day at the range for those who are interested where we can go over safety and use, then be able to go back to class and work more on it with a practice firearm.
 

Zoran

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Dale Seago said:
...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel...

That should read:

...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and criminals...

Since criminals don't abide by laws.
 

Dale Seago

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Zoran said:
That should read:

...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and criminals...

Since criminals don't abide by laws.


*sigh*

Can't argue with you there. . .
 

mrhnau

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Zoran said:
That should read:

...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and criminals...

Since criminals don't abide by laws.

here is the catch. if you own one, you are by definition a criminal, since you are breaking the law.

of course, I assume you are refering to those that will use it to bad effects and are criminals before owning a gun, and not your average gun-loving american.

how on earth did that pass? isn't that a blatant violation of 2nd amendment rights? is it the entire town? I can understand certain sections of private property or government facilities, but your private house? Sounds like one for the court system if I ever heard of one...
 

Zoran

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mrhnau said:
how on earth did that pass? isn't that a blatant violation of 2nd amendment rights? is it the entire town? I can understand certain sections of private property or government facilities, but your private house? Sounds like one for the court system if I ever heard of one...

Actually, I don't think they are the first or going to be the last. Chicago has some sort of ban on handguns also. Since I don't live in the city, I am not sure exactly what it is. From what I recall, it's the same as San Fran.

I did hear of a town in the US that created a law that it's illegal NOT to own a gun. I think they were trying to make a statement.
 

Bigshadow

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Zoran said:
Actually, I don't think they are the first or going to be the last. Chicago has some sort of ban on handguns also. Since I don't live in the city, I am not sure exactly what it is. From what I recall, it's the same as San Fran.

I did hear of a town in the US that created a law that it's illegal NOT to own a gun. I think they were trying to make a statement.

Legend has it, it was in Texas? But I cannot confirm that.
 

Don Roley

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Well, Hatsumi does a lot of things with a pistol at training. So it is hardly something from outside the Bujinkan.

There are things that are just extensions of what we do with other tools, and then there are things that come from the knife and pistol fighting book. Yes, I know that basically is just stuff that are variations of the san shin and ways of throwing shuriken. But it is laid out in specific methods and so I feel it should be treated differently than the variation stuff.

One thing I should mention, I do not reccomend that people try to learn from the book. I have worked with some Japanese shihan with the stuff and between their experiences and mine, we seem to have done ok. I have seen others try to do it and I can see the flaws they can't see.
 

bydand

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The town was Kennesaw, Georgia back in 1982 in response to Morton Grove, IL. total ban on firearms.

In training we did back late 90's in Maine we covered firearms a little. Defense only and as a group we didn't go out to a range, but, many of us used to go out and shoot together for fun and friendly competition. Haven't covered it much after that, I should bring it up and see if we could go over it again.

Scott G.
 

Don Roley

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I have to point out that a lot of folks do firearms, but take things from outside the tradition to fill their gaps. In fact, I think Dale has a comment made by a captive Japanese shihan about the matter.

I remember in the early days there was a lot of borrowing from IPSC and the like. It is actually one of the things that turned me off from training at that point. It wasn't until later, after Knife and Pistol Fighting was released that I actually got excited about firearms and the Bujinkan.

I wonder how many people still take things from competitive sports like that and try to fit it into their taijutsu training.
 
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Cryozombie

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Don Roley said:
I wonder how many people still take things from competitive sports like that and try to fit it into their taijutsu training.

Probably almost EVERYONE who doesnt have this training availible to them...

Although, I should prolly point out that I mean from "other" firearms sources, and not competitive shooting. I mean police and military tactics as well.

I know that when I have a firearm in my hand, I fall back to what I learned in the military, as well as things I learned from my father, and other sources, like Mr. Ayoob's training videos and the like... because even tho I am surrounded by firearms here in america, that knowlage isn't taught to us.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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I've heard of an instance in the early 90's in which someone who was knowledgeable about guns pointed out some flaws in what Hatsumi was doing at the time, and the next day or so uncle H started teaching the new methods instead.
Personally, I haven't fired any real guns since my visit to Israel six years ago.
 

bshovan

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I have been fortunate to have been associated with instructors the past 30 years who were also quite competent in fire arm usage. In the early 70's I began studies with a Martial Arts Instructor who was also in charge of the SWAT training for an inner city police department. Another instructor was also, and still is involved in firearms competition ( combative shooting ). I have experienced three times being confronted in real life with a firearm, and have successfully difused each encounter. In a nutshell, how many Martial Artists have actually experienced real life encounters against empty handed and those with weapons at hand.
Many can talk about their training, roots and lineage but most have never experienced what it's like to realistically been in situations such as a gun to your body, a knife to your body, improvised weapons directed to your person, or in the middle of a F'd up situation. Remember, training in the martial arts also teaches one to try to avoid being in harmful situations but, sometimes one's occupation does present situations happening.
Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.
 

Don Roley

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bshovan said:
Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.

Oh puh-leaze!!!!:rolleyes:

Who let Bruce Calkins back in the room?

FYI, there are at least five Bujinkan members who post here that can tell you the exact sound a rifle bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier over your head.

People that 'walk the walk' rarely find the need to come into a conversation trying to talk the talk.

Google the term "Virtual Tough Guy" and then imagine how some of us look at the way you just have to tell us how much training and experience you have had. Especially since you list kenpo and not ninjutsu as your art.

The more people try to impress me, the less they do.
 
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Cryozombie

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bshovan said:
Remember, training in the martial arts also teaches one to try to avoid being in harmful situations but, sometimes one's occupation does present situations happening.
Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.

I wont speak for anyone else here, Bshovan, but *I* survived having a loaded Llama .380 pointed at my head, and the fight that resulted from it. And yes, I can back those claims up, police reports were filed, after they arrested the guy durring a standoff.

Having been thru it, my handling of the situation impresses me no more or less than training does. Its just something that happened, and you move on and keep training.
 

Dale Seago

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Technopunk said:
I wont speak for anyone else here, Bshovan, but *I* survived having a loaded Llama .308 pointed at my head. . .

Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers. :)
 

Bigshadow

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Dale Seago said:
Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers. :)
;) I saw that too... I didn't think they made rifles or specialized big game hand guns.
 
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