Firearms and Ninjutsu

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Cryozombie

Cryozombie

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Dale Seago said:
Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers. :)

Yes, you are correct. I have .308 on the brain as I just obtained one.

LOL.

Thanks!
 

Don Roley

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Nimravus said:
I've heard of an instance in the early 90's in which someone who was knowledgeable about guns pointed out some flaws in what Hatsumi was doing at the time, and the next day or so uncle H started teaching the new methods instead.

I have trouble with stories like this since there is so much distorition going on wtih them. We still are trying to convince people that Hatsumi was not made a national treasure by the emporer of Japan.

But there does seem to be a ring of truth to the above. Hatsumi has never been one to insist that he is infallible. He does listen to people who have been in combat and know more than him in certain subjects.

I can say that the techniques that are called the san shin uchi resemble the battle tested methods of Rex Applegate. I doubt they are connected, but things that work tend to have common elements.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Don Roley said:
I have trouble with stories like this since there is so much distorition going on wtih them.

The person who said this saw it with his own eyes, and I have no reason to doubt the validity of his words.
 

jetboatdeath

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I think maybe it would be good just so people know what a gun going off sounds like. And that some Joe Smoe with a hand gun might not be as big of a threat as you would think.Alot of people have never heard a real gun go off.
 

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Took your advice and went to google-" virtual Tough Guy." Ouch, I totally see what you mean. Life's a learning experience and I just learned something so Domo Arigato.
 

Don Roley

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bshovan said:
Took your advice and went to google-" virtual Tough Guy." Ouch, I totally see what you mean. Life's a learning experience and I just learned something so Domo Arigato.

And learning is what we are all about.

It takes a big man to admit they are not perfect. I hope you enjoy your experience here at martialtalk.
 

Shinkengata

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I do firearm training with an LEO friend of mine. I started out using isosoles, but found it to be not quite uncomfortable for me aside from accuracy practice, so i switched to a modified weaver with great maneuvering capability and good stability. I rack the slide with the palm of a shuto, in relation to taijutsu. It works and doesn't rely on the fine motor-function of using your thumb and forefinger knuckle to pull back the slide. Plus i can take the pistol and push it forward into aiming and firing position while chambering a round at the same time. The chambering shuto hand naturally stays near my neck similar to ichimonji, for quick one-handed firing.
 

Don Roley

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Interesting what you say about Weaver vs Isosoles. I have the opposite view on them. I use modified weaver for shooting around targets with either hand. But otherwise I tend to use something closer to Isosoles. I think of it as being like chudan or jodan no kamae from kenjutsu with feet a bit closer.
 

Shinkengata

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I'm not really against isosoles, but i just haven't been able to make it work for me on the range as well as the modified weaver that i use. My former(by distance) instructor heavily favors isosoles.
 

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Don Roley said:
Interesting what you say about Weaver vs Isosoles. I have the opposite view on them. I use modified weaver for shooting around targets with either hand. But otherwise I tend to use something closer to Isosoles. I think of it as being like chudan or jodan no kamae from kenjutsu with feet a bit closer.

I am no expert, so take this info from the Novice point of view or the casual point of view.

I was taught the Isosoles first and used it on the range with good learning.

Then I played with the Modified Weaver and was able to improve my groupings.

The isosoles was a great place to understand the basics of shooting and be able to get a lot of the basics down.

Plus I found with some of the outdoor ranges with the low overhangs and my height it is much easier to get a proper stance and position on the target with the modified.
 

Shinkengata

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Rich Parsons said:
I am no expert, so take this info from the Novice point of view or the casual point of view.

I was taught the Isosoles first and used it on the range with good learning.

Then I played with the Modified Weaver and was able to improve my groupings.

The isosoles was a great place to understand the basics of shooting and be able to get a lot of the basics down.

Plus I found with some of the outdoor ranges with the low overhangs and my height it is much easier to get a proper stance and position on the target with the modified.

You're coming from basically the same place i am.
 

Don Roley

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Hmmmm, interesting.

I come from the attitude of having taijutsu habits and not breaking the principles I learned from Bujinkan. In Bujinkan, I try to keep my shoulders and hips pretty much facing the same direction. When the hips open up to the side, the shoulders do as well.

It just seems easier for me to lock my upper body in place and use my hips to point than screw my shoulders to the side in Weaver and twist the upper body. Movement seems easier to me doing this.

Anyone else have any ideas on the matter? I would love to hear some discussion on the pros and cons of both.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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For me I like to be able to move my feet effectively and the Isosoles just has less movement and is more rigid. The modified weaver stance provides for better movement and also the feel of it is the same when I am using a shotgun, rifle, etc. Plus it is the way I learned first a long, long, long time ago and it is very hard to change. Another issue is being able to change levels from standing to kneeling. Once again the Weaver has an advantage. Having said all of that I do regularly practice in the isosoles stance and have good groupings in it as well. Best bet is to find what works for you and then use it. In today's day and age if you are interested in self defense then you need to have a working knowledge of firearms and that is definately one thing that I like about the Bujinkan. There are a lot of knowledgeable instructors out there who understand this. One of them and there are alot of them is Bart Uguccioni of the Dexter Bujinkan Dojo. He is a former Marine Recon and also has trained extensively with Jeff Cooper. Another who I have not met but seems very knowledgeable is Dale Seagle. Do not forget Phil Legare as he is definatley one of the Bujinkan's best. We are a very lucky group because of the diversity and size of the Bujinkan. There are so many good teachers! :)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
 

Rich Parsons

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Don Roley said:
Hmmmm, interesting.

I come from the attitude of having taijutsu habits and not breaking the principles I learned from Bujinkan. In Bujinkan, I try to keep my shoulders and hips pretty much facing the same direction. When the hips open up to the side, the shoulders do as well.

It just seems easier for me to lock my upper body in place and use my hips to point than screw my shoulders to the side in Weaver and twist the upper body. Movement seems easier to me doing this.

Anyone else have any ideas on the matter? I would love to hear some discussion on the pros and cons of both.


Don, this is very insightful. In Balintawak we train to at first always face the the cane. Meaning your hips and shoulders are facing it and parallel to the incoming strike. Later the student places a lead foot forward and then learns to adjust with just their upper body. i.e. your shoulders learn to adjust and face the weapon. Then later you learn how to decrease the teligrapghing by not changing the shoulders and or hips. Yet still properly striking with the hips through it all.

The guy who is working with me, has said my performace is good for the amount I am learning, and he credits it to my martial arts (* He also trains in both art I do, plus he has done lots of other stuff since the mid 60's on *). I go out and shot a couple of rounds and then try to think about what I did and what was right and what can be improved. I try different things and then decide on one little thing and move forward, always trying to improve.

So, our training else where would effect how we approach a situation, and how we feel is more natural then others.

Thank you for sharing that point.
 

Shinkengata

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Don i actually practice going into an ichimonji stance and firing one-handed like i talked about. It works well for squeezing off a few rounds as you drop back into ichimonji before rolling behind cover.

Weaver foot placement is similar to Jumonji, and Isosoles is similar to Hira.
 

Don Roley

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Shinkengata said:
Weaver foot placement is similar to Jumonji, and Isosoles is similar to Hira.

Not the way I do Jumonji/ Isosoles. In both, one foot is back a bit from the lead foot, but not extremely. Not as much as ichimonji. The hips and shoulders are on line and are more facing dead on the target than facing away. Hira is with the feet on a line and wide. And I think of the footwork of Weaver (at least as I do it) as being that of Tenchijin no kamae for sword or bo.
 

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some of the fire arms I was tought off the Koga clan were mortor type & can be made with hollow bamboo or pop cans.I Do sugguest a long or timed fuse to get out of the way.Time to time these were known to explode & not so much fire.That made it good for eart minds.Now we can use a cigar for time fuse or cigarate for shorter.We also had cane guns that shot 1 round-some muscett type & some modified for 22. cal.We also had that which looked like a baton & 2 types stem from this 1- it shot a bag full of led to knock out & not couse great damage or death 2-shot a net to entrap.The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.Koga reguards to what mst say came from Koga Korea.The Hwarangdo -- SulSaDo--KookSul--Honamu ect. ctem from the koga.So if some one says Koga (it should be 100% korea based)
 

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monkey said:
some of the fire arms I was tought off the Koga clan were mortor type & can be made with hollow bamboo or pop cans.I Do sugguest a long or timed fuse to get out of the way.Time to time these were known to explode & not so much fire.That made it good for eart minds.Now we can use a cigar for time fuse or cigarate for shorter.We also had cane guns that shot 1 round-some muscett type & some modified for 22. cal.We also had that which looked like a baton & 2 types stem from this 1- it shot a bag full of led to knock out & not couse great damage or death 2-shot a net to entrap.The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.Koga reguards to what mst say came from Koga Korea.The Hwarangdo -- SulSaDo--KookSul--Honamu ect. ctem from the koga.So if some one says Koga (it should be 100% korea based)
Um.... no. I've bit my tongue (errrrr, fingers?) while you posted in the Arnis forums, but you are not passing that off as fact here. There is no existing Koga tradition, mmm'kay?
 
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