Extinct Kwans?

[IcemanSK]

I've noticed that some Kwans have kept their identity since Taekwondo became "official." Some more than others (Jido Kwan & Chung Do Kwan being 2 of them). Others have not seemed to keep their identity as much.

Are there any of the original Kwans that are all but extinct in terms of maintaining identifiable schools?

I'm being serious, but for those who have thought of already, I know nothing beats Rex Kwon Do.

 

[deadhand31]

Interesting you should bring this up. In class tonight, my instructor said that when TKD started, there were 9 kwons. He said there are now 6. Maybe there have been some that have died out or adapted. I'd be interested in knowing all of the original. I'll list some that I know, if anyone else wants to expand it, please do.

1. Ji do kwon
2. Chang moo kwon
3. Chung do kwon
4. Moo duk kwon
5. Oh do kwon
6. Sung moo kwon
7. Han moo kwon

I don't know about the other two, though. Could the ATA's songahm style be included?

 

[Zepp]

I don't know about the other two, though. Could the ATA's songahm style be included?

I don't think that counts as one of the original kwans. I think Iceman was asking about the kwans that were recognized by the KTF before the creation of the WTF, when most of the kwans were absorbed into one body. There were actually a lot more than 9 if you count all the little annex kwans (some official, some not) that came from the bigger ones. The most complete list I've seen is in that short book, "A Modern History of Tae Kwon Do" you can find on the internet.

Personally, I trained in the Chung Do Kwan style, under the World TKD Association. Our organization is headed by GM Duk Sung Son, a former head of the CDK, and our style is mostly the older, pre-sport teachings. But there are lots of other organizations, not necessarily related to us, that can claim Chung Do Kwan lineage.

If you want to learn about what's left of the Oh Do Kwan, you should search for posts by Spookey. He actually holds Oh Do Kwan rank, recognized by the ITF.

I've met people that have told me they trained under a Ji Do Kwan instructor, but I don't know if what they practice today is any different from standard WTF TKD.

And I've read from people here on this site that say they're Moo Duk Kwan TKD, as opposed to Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, which is much more common.

That's as much as I know.

 

[IcemanSK]

You're right about what I was asking, Zepp. I think its great when a school maintains its identity because it connects students with those who have gone before us.

Thanks for your posts, gentleman.:asian:

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I've never done TKD, but my wife has, so I thought I'd ask this on her behalf. Where does Ch'ang Hon fit into this?

Thanks

If this has been discussed elswhere, I apologize.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've never done TKD, but my wife has, so I thought I'd ask this on her behalf. Where does Ch'ang Hon fit into this?

Thanks

If this has been discussed elswhere, I apologize.

Jeff:

The Chang Hon forms, rather than being a Kwan (or school of TKD) are the group of forms developed by General Choi, Hong Hi. The General is the founder of the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he the founder og Oh Do Kwan?) The great thing about those forms is the are each named for someone or something special in Korean history.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thanks for the info. After looking at her certs, it's Chung do Kwan she has studied.

Thanks for putting up with and informing someone who's an idiot about TDK.

Jeff

 

[IcemanSK]

Thanks for the info. After looking at her certs, it's Chung do Kwan she has studied.

Thanks for putting up with and informing someone who's an idiot about TDK.

Jeff

With whom does she study Chung Do Kwan? That's my branch of TKD, too.

BTW, you're hardly an idiot about TKD. That award goes to folks who have trained in it for years & still think their master instructor will teach them the secrets of human flight! They're out there.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

She studies under Mike Beam and Dave Teter, who studied under Kim Myung Gil. That might be Kim Gil Myung. Not sure what the correct order of names would be there. Be interesting to see how it connects with you.

Thanks again,

Jeff

 

[rmclain]

It is difficult to find any school nowadays that really has anything from the original kwans. Usually, they use the name of an old kwan, but know nothing of the tradition or the material taught at the original kwan. Not to single one group out, just to make a point, I think every TKD school student I've met that claims to teach Jido Kwan doesn't know any of the old forms or even the founder of Jido Kwan's name. Usually, they teach Palgue or Taeguek forms, but still use the old name. This does not mean what they teach does not have value, it just means that they are not really teaching anything from the old kwan.

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

It is difficult to find any school nowadays that really has anything from the original kwans. Usually, they use the name of an old kwan, but know nothing of the tradition or the material taught at the original kwan. Not to single one group out, just to make a point, I think every TKD school student I've met that claims to teach Jido Kwan doesn't know any of the old forms or even the founder of Jido Kwan's name. Usually, they teach Palgue or Taeguek forms, but still use the old name. This does not mean what they teach does not have value, it just means that they are not really teaching anything from the old kwan.

R. McLain

I've noticed this, too. They have the name, but none of the unique things of the Kwan. It brings me to another question. What are the distinct characteristics of the Kwans? Beyond, Who started this or that one. What makes each unique? I've learned that JiDo Kwan is heavily influenced by the early Hapkido folks. Hence the reason some JiDo Kwan masters wear the Hapkido doboks. Are there techniques that make Chung Do Kwan unique? Or the others?

 

[Miles]

I've noticed this, too. They have the name, but none of the unique things of the Kwan. It brings me to another question. What are the distinct characteristics of the Kwans? Beyond, Who started this or that one. What makes each unique? I've learned that JiDo Kwan is heavily influenced by the early Hapkido folks. Hence the reason some JiDo Kwan masters wear the Hapkido doboks. Are there techniques that make Chung Do Kwan unique? Or the others?

I've been told that one of the Chung Do Kwan's "distinct characteristics" was the use of the side kick.

I've also been told that the Jidokwan had a "distinct characteristic" in that it required its members to beat higher-ranked members in sparring in order to advance in rank. I am told this is taken from Judo since the Jidokwan originated in a Judo school.


BTW, Kim, Myung Gil was mentioned-if memory serves, he was a Chung Do Kwan Instructor at Osan Air Force Base along with current Chung Do Kwan secretary GM Lee, Tae Sung. I believe GM Kim passed away from cancer many years ago.

Miles

 

[IcemanSK]

I've been told that one of the Chung Do Kwan's "distinct characteristics" was the use of the side kick.

I've also been told that the Jidokwan had a "distinct characteristic" in that it required its members to beat higher-ranked members in sparring in order to advance in rank. I am told this is taken from Judo since the Jidokwan originated in a Judo school.


BTW, Kim, Myung Gil was mentioned-if memory serves, he was a Chung Do Kwan Instructor at Osan Air Force Base along with current Chung Do Kwan secretary GM Lee, Tae Sung. I believe GM Kim passed away from cancer many years ago.

Miles

Thanks Miles! I always appreciate your insights. You are a fountain of knowledge about Taekwondo. Are you sure you have a day job?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

BTW, Kim, Myung Gil was mentioned-if memory serves, he was a Chung Do Kwan Instructor at Osan Air Force Base along with current Chung Do Kwan secretary GM Lee, Tae Sung. I believe GM Kim passed away from cancer many years ago.

Miles

That fits in with all the stories I've heard about him. He was a fighter pilot at Osan from what I've heard.

Also, the side kick makes perfect sense for Chung do Kwan schools here at least. I've been in and out of martial arts for years, and have never seen teaching of the side kick start so early as it does at thier schools. Heck, i'd be doing it myself cept I got medically retired from the army cause of a broken hip, and don't have the range of motion in my legs for TKD. Have learned a few of the forms though. Learned some good stuff from them.

Jeff

 

[rmclain]

I've noticed this, too. They have the name, but none of the unique things of the Kwan. It brings me to another question. What are the distinct characteristics of the Kwans? Beyond, Who started this or that one. What makes each unique? I've learned that JiDo Kwan is heavily influenced by the early Hapkido folks. Hence the reason some JiDo Kwan masters wear the Hapkido doboks. Are there techniques that make Chung Do Kwan unique? Or the others?

Each school (kwan) had a little bit different way they practiced and taught because of the head instructor's background. One school may teach karate from Funakoshi's-lineage, one may teach chuan-fa and Shudokan karate, etc. So, their tradition and practice was different from each other.

Jido Kwan was a kong soo do (karate) school. The headmaster, Yoon Kwye Byung, learned karate in Japan from Kanken Toyama. He even included bong hyung (staff forms) in the curriculum and he wrote a book about it in the 1940's. - I've never met any school claiming Jido Kwan nowadays that knows any bong hyung from this lineage. They practiced at a place that had yudo(judo), but there wasn't really any Hapkido around at that time to influence them. It may have been someone later down the line that added it.

Chang Moo kwan's headmaster was Byung In Yoon, who studied Chuan-fa while growing up in Manchuria and shudokan karate from Kanken Toyama in Japan. So, this school had forms and techniques from both styles in the curriculum. One of the old-days (1951) students of this school described to me the appearance of the students as, "Hard but smooth, smooth but hard." This makes sense with the chuan-fa influence of deflecting/redirecting blocks and techniques, contrasting the harder force-against-force blocks from the karate influece. Byung In Yoon and Jido Kwan's Yoon Kwye Byung were good friends since their college days in Japan. Chang Moo Kwan even had one of Jido Kwan's bong hyung (staff forms) in the curriculum.

In short, each kwan had a little bit different influence, thus different instruction and tradition. But now, they all look the same and practice modern forms created in the late 1960's and early 1970's. If a school claims a old kwan name, yet practices Palgue, Taeguek or the Yudansha forms (Koryo, Tae Baek, Ship Jin, Jee Tae) as their only forms, they are not really teaching the old material. Could be, that their instructor's instructor, etc. was originally from that old kwan - but nothing in the curriculum remains from the old tradition. Does this make sense?

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

Each school (kwan) had a little bit different way they practiced and taught because of the head instructor's background. One school may teach karate from Funakoshi's-lineage, one may teach chuan-fa and Shudokan karate, etc. So, their tradition and practice was different from each other.

Jido Kwan was a kong soo do (karate) school. The headmaster, Yoon Kwye Byung, learned karate in Japan from Kanken Toyama. He even included bong hyung (staff forms) in the curriculum and he wrote a book about it in the 1940's. - I've never met any school claiming Jido Kwan nowadays that knows any bong hyung from this lineage. They practiced at a place that had yudo(judo), but there wasn't really any Hapkido around at that time to influence them. It may have been someone later down the line that added it.

Chang Moo kwan's headmaster was Byung In Yoon, who studied Chuan-fa while growing up in Manchuria and shudokan karate from Kanken Toyama in Japan. So, this school had forms and techniques from both styles in the curriculum. One of the old-days (1951) students of this school described to me the appearance of the students as, "Hard but smooth, smooth but hard." This makes sense with the chuan-fa influence of deflecting/redirecting blocks and techniques, contrasting the harder force-against-force blocks from the karate influece. Byung In Yoon and Jido Kwan's Yoon Kwye Byung were good friends since their college days in Japan. Chang Moo Kwan even had one of Jido Kwan's bong hyung (staff forms) in the curriculum.

In short, each kwan had a little bit different influence, thus different instruction and tradition. But now, they all look the same and practice modern forms created in the late 1960's and early 1970's. If a school claims a old kwan name, yet practices Palgue, Taeguek or the Yudansha forms (Koryo, Tae Baek, Ship Jin, Jee Tae) as their only forms, they are not really teaching the old material. Could be, that their instructor's instructor, etc. was originally from that old kwan - but nothing in the curriculum remains from the old tradition. Does this make sense?

R. McLain

Thank you for this insight, sir. I misspoke on my understanding of JiDo Kwan. In my Chung Do Kwan program, the side kick is VERY important. And my instructor teaches old kata that he learned as part of his training in Korea (that I mentioned in another thread in "Korean Arts.")

 

[Zepp]

I've been told that one of the Chung Do Kwan's "distinct characteristics" was the use of the side kick.

Very true. Sometimes I wonder if we over-emphasize the sidekick, turning it into a weakness. But if an advanced student of CDK lineage hits you with a sidekick full-on, you probably won't be in condition to retaliate.

 

[bignick]

My school was started by Moo Yong Yun, who was a member of Sang Moo Kwan. From what I've heard, one of their idiosyncracies was when performing the hyung you would not recover your leg after you kicked, instead letting it drop straigh legged. If this ever was a stylistic difference, it is long gone in our schools and the other ones that I've seen that trace their lineage back to Grandmaster Yun.

Don't know much else about it though...

 

[IcemanSK]

My school was started by Moo Yong Yun, who was a member of Sang Moo Kwan. From what I've heard, one of their idiosyncracies was when performing the hyung you would not recover your leg after you kicked, instead letting it drop straigh legged. If this ever was a stylistic difference, it is long gone in our schools and the other ones that I've seen that trace their lineage back to Grandmaster Yun.

Don't know much else about it though...

That's an interesting idiosyncracy to have. I wonder how that started?

 

[bignick]

:idunno: