Experienced Knifers

[MisterMike]

I'm wondering how people skilled defending against experienced knife fighters handle them empty handed.

I hear you most likely will be cut, in one fashion or another, so where would you prefer to be cut?

Also, how do you move in and what do you go for?

It seems most arts defend against a certain committed line of attack, but not the short slashes and rapid jabs you would come to expect from a seasoned knife fighter.

I've seen the techniques taught in the Parker system, and I do not think they would hold water against a real knife fighter. The examples they show are valid for the attack, but I feel the likeliness of such attacks may be low.

It's comparable to the reverse punch, frozen in the air, vs. the jab from a boxer. It's a little more complicated to deal with, especially holding a blade.

TIA,

 

[Old Tiger]

Mike,
I just had to respond to this one! To answer your question bluntly....an experienced martial artist of any type getting the best of an experienced and armed knife fighter only works in the movies.
I have explored this question, at others request, on numerous occasions. I will give a couple of examples that will hopefully be inlightening. I have studied in 13 different styles of combat/martial arts for the last 27 years. I spent more time with some more than others, obviously. One in which I spent a great deal of time is the filipino martial arts. I trained extensively in Aikido for a little over two years. One night in class the instructor, a very capable third degree black belt was going over knife defenses. I dutifully went through the exercises without saying anything, I am after all, respectful. Toward the end of the class, however, he addressed me. Knowing my background, he says, I want you to take the training knife and see if you can cut me. I said I wasn't sure that was a good idea. He said no, I really want to see how my defenses work. So, after some cajoling I agreed. I took the knife and stood casually. He assumed a classic prepared posture and waited for me to attack as Aikidoka rarely initiate attack. I attacked and in the course of about two seconds cut him about eight to ten times from his arm, body, legs and groin. He was shocked. He insisted we try again with the same results. "Well," he said, " you have given me a lot to think about."
The same thing happened with a boxer friend of mine who insisted he could hit me before I could cut him. Again, aluminum training knife in hand we went at it. He initiated with a jab cross. I cut both arms when he was on his way in and followed with a clinch and several stabs to the body. His reaction was "holy s#it." Most people are not aware of what the knife can do in the hands of a skilled person. You asked, where would you want to be cut first?" No where. A sharp four inch blade can cut 8-9" deep in a side of beef from one skilled slash. Imagine what that would do to the human body. You would be cut to the bone anywhere. Experienced knife fighters slash because it causes greater blood loss and the opponent will pass out in seconds. another important aspect is speed. Most skilled knife fighters are very..very fast. That is because most start their training, as did I, with years of stick work. When you can negotiate a stick with either hand at 120 miles an hour employing complex stikes and footwork it is only accentuated when the weapon in hand is a small knife.
To quote Guro Dan Inosanto:
Only three things can happen in a knife fight between two skilled and armed opponents. You are better than he is and you kill him. Second, he is better than you are and he kills you. and third you are about the same skill and you kill each other.

An unarmed man against an armed knife fighter doesn't stand a chance. Your best defensive move in such a situation is to employ the Nike method. Haul ***.

 

[MisterMike]

Thanks!

I was hoping someone with Filipino experience would answer. They seem to train with the most realism, or at least practicality regarding knives and stick.

But of your three scenarios, there is the one where you are better than the attacker. The thing is, how do you train to be better?

Just by being faster? Certainly there is better technique as well. And certainly, no matter what, in most cases you will be cut.

One way in my training we prepared for that is to keep the backs of the forearms facing out, rather than the meaty part. The thinking there is that you have a "shield" to protect your centerline. It's better to be cut on the outside of the arm, than the inside, or across the torso.

Thanks again,
Mike

 

[Dijos]

I don't know, I guess I fall into both categories-I study an art which is almost all knife. There are defenses against an armed opponent, but movement is the most important. Do not be where the knife is. This may include running away. I can pass and redirect, and get off center, or to the outside, but being unarmed is a massive hindrance. until your opponent is disarmed (highly unlikely) or taken down, or locked up (difficult, to say the least) you're going to be in a world of poop, unless you get away. There is no replacement for real-time sparring to see what works, and what doesn't.--Joe

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by MisterMike

But of your three scenarios, there is the one where you are better than the attacker. The thing is, how do you train to be better?

I think what you are lookin for is how to realistically train against a knife without finding someone to specificly teach you a "style". I had some friends that had no interest in training the "usual" way with training knives, drills, ect. To accomodate them we came up with some interesting ideas. The first one is to use metal butter knives. The knives are dull edged and blunt tipped for safety and the slight serration gives them the ability to sting a little and leave a little red mark on the skin when you get hit. (Remember to use goggles or shades for basic eye protection if you go to the face) The best part about the butter knives is that they are metal and have a sheen, so you get the flash and "ting" of a real blade, not to mention they are inexpensive. The second thing we did was use washable magic markers. This was an easy and inexpensive way to assess hit locations and how they would damage you. Mabey this will help if you want to do some realistic knife work, but like any other thing in life, if someone is specifically trained to do something (fight with a knife), it will be extremely hard to stop them. Knife fights are chaotic, messy, sloppy and, worst of all, lethal.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Good Posts.

I have done what OULobo has mentioned, and I Have also used chalk in your hands as well. The markers and chalk give you the chance to change colors to see. I liked the chalk idea for the fact that it was easier to brush off the color. Although I found it did not help in the attackers techniques. They became sloppy to protect the chalk from breaking in your hand.


And as catchevangelist stated, it can be an eye opener. If you are training to just have some basic knowledge to maybe survive the tough guy with no training then you can train one way. If you are training to be a knife dueler or fighter then there are other areas of training. One is sensitivity to the opponent and the movements of your body and his body. This training can be tough to understand and practice unless one of the people involved understands and can explain it to the other and show it to them.

As to timing, I have found from my instructors and my students that it is easier to do techniques and sensitivity drills slow, and slow increase them to the level the student can handle to learn from. Over time their timing and sensitivity and techniques all improve.

There is no easy way to gain all this by yourself in a quick and easy fashion. Once you do have the major conecpts and understanding you can practice on your own the techniques and footwork et al, yet to truly work your timing you need a training partner.

Oh yes I love White belts also, for they do not know how they are supposed to move and this is just as much of a test to me as someone who is more skilled than I.

:asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Yeah, I've heard about the practice knives that leave chalk on you. That sounds like fun actually

Kind of like sparring is to street-fighting. Only the difference is you're more likely to get killed in a knife fight.

For people who have training in a style of hand to hand combat, I think the goal would be getting in on the person so you can do what you do best. But before then, I would think there is a common way to get to where you want to be without getting too injured.

But there is definitely a consensus that you're in a pretty bad spot from the onset.

Good posts,

 

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Thanks!

I was hoping someone with Filipino experience would answer. They seem to train with the most realism, or at least practicality regarding knives and stick.

-that is because that is where they live! An interesting sparring scenario is stick against knife. A stick in the hands of a skilled person is a frightening experience. The principles carry over to what ever weapon is at hand.
But of your three scenarios, there is the one where you are better than the attacker. The thing is, how do you train to be better?

Just by being faster? Certainly there is better technique as well. And certainly, no matter what, in most cases you will be cut.

-speed, technique, feints, body movement, all are important and must be trained. there are no "in three quick easy lessons..."

One way in my training we prepared for that is to keep the backs of the forearms facing out, rather than the meaty part. The thinking there is that you have a "shield" to protect your centerline. It's better to be cut on the outside of the arm, than the inside, or across the torso.

-better than nothing, however, once you get cut the clock starts ticking as to how long you can continue. Again, it isn't like in the movies. Most people go into shock immediately when cut or seriously injured, they tend to hold their breath and pass out or pass out from blood loss shortly. It depends on the severity of the wound.

 

[Cruentus]

I basically tell my students that you should NEVER be in a fight with no weapon against a "knife fighter." Use a weapon that you carry. If you don't carry, use a weapon of opportunity in your environment, or Run if you can. If you find yourself unable to run with no weapon or weapon of opportunity against a trained knife wielding attacker, then you have F-ed up royally somewhere along the line.

Now, lets say you F-ed up royally, and you are empty hand Vs. an knife Armed attacker. You must take on the attitude that you are already dead. Your not worried about getting cut, and your not scared of anything. You are a walking dead person. Kiss your @$$ goodbye, get ready to meet your maker, then go for broke. Attempt to take his knife, or take him out. If you succeed, then you must have multiple lives, or are very lucky. If you don't, oh well...you knew what was going to happend anyways.

So, I say practice empty hand vs. knife disarms and strategies. Spar, drill, or what have you. I think that empty hand disarms are a lot of fun myelf. Have fun with it, and incorporate it into your own training...just understand that if you ever need to use your empty hand vs knife skills, your most likely going to be killed.

PAUL

 

[Trent]

All excellent advice and experience above.

Our silat is based upon the knife. It has been frequently quoted among us, "There is no silat without the knife." That being said, it is possible to survive and escape as well as (even) come out on top, but you had better be more aware, more skilled and more experienced than the knifer by a good margin, and the knifer doesn't really wish to eliminate you (i.e., lacks commitment to the deed). Not something you wish to count on in the scenario at all.

For instance, the example above illustrated an experienced FMA (great bladed arts) with other martial experience over a protracted period of time was placed against two unarmed opponents who really had no idea of his skills, and he had an idea of their abilities. Definitely a no win situation.

Even if you do have a some skills in knife arts all that is required is a *touch* by the knifer and you are injured, leaking and likely psychologically affected to a huge degree. And you have to disarm him through structural compulsion, unconsciousness or death.

Chalk knives are a good idea, as are large markers. We use aluminum blades and dulled steel blades as well.

Speed certainly helps, as with anything martial, but timing is much more important, as well as angulation, footwork, control of the base, weapon knowledge, experience, kinesthetic perception, awareness, leverage, body mechanics and a proper integration of the attributes combined with realistic practice, realistic practice and more realistic practice.

 

[Cthulhu]

After about two years of FMA training with quite a bit of bladework, the most important thing I've learned about knife fights is to not get in one.

I remember someone watching us do some bladework and after seeing some of the techniques and hearing the explanation of them, I believe the response was a whispered, "Holy ****!".

As for chalk and training knives, here's an idea I had but have yet to implement:

Talk a large piece of chalk and run it liberally along the edges of an aluminum trainer. As long as the trainer hasn't been overly polished, enough chalk should stick for a few slashes.

Cthulhu

 

[Brian King]

Glue a pipe cleaner (those thin wire things with some kind of cloth or plastic wrapped on them) to a trainer. The fabric can then be dusted with chalk. After awhile the cleaner gets rather beat up just peel off and glue the next on. An added benefit of using these cleaners on the trainers is that you are better able to see exactly what part of the blade edge you are using. A fun thing is to also chalk cutting edge one color, false edge another color and the butt a third color (pipe cleaner rolled into a spiral and glued to the butt). Now have fun and draw and dot.

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian

 

[Arthur]

Great suggestion Brian!!!!! You've been holding out on us all this time, haven't you?

Arthur

 

[Gaucho]

Hi All ,

I am one of the senior instructors in Amok! Combatives and study Systema with Arthur. He felt I might have something to contribute here, so I hope you all don't mind if I add my 2 cents.

I've personally been involved in half a dozen EH Vs knife fights and survived more or less intact- except for the deep emotional scars, that is . Honestly, I was very lucky in that the guys I fought were really just crazy a**holes with knives in their hands rather than skilled knifefighters. If they had been, with the skills I had then, I would be dead. No question.

OK, so I've been there, done that, never want to do it again, but I train for it every day of my life.

Alright, so how do you approach what is possibly the most difficult survival problem a fighter can face- fighting EH Vs a skilled knifewielding attacker?

The first thing is that someone- and preferably several someones- in your training group has to become a skilled knifefighter. You have to understand your enemy before you can defeat him. If you have never seen skilled knifefighters fight one another, you are totally unprepared for the speed, the mobility, the deception. It is shocking.

Let me give you a little view of how a knifefighter fights so that we can start to think about how to approach him.

A knifefighter is very relaxed, liquid. His knife does most of the work for him.

He can cut you up to six time in a single second, every second. Most knifefights are over in 6 seconds.

He will cut any target of opportunity that presents itself.

If he can, he will cut you a few times on the way into your center and cut you some more on the way out.

He trains constantly against other knifefighters so he is skilled in getting in and out without getting hit or cut. He therefore attacks with full intention but without 100% comitment to any strike. That way he is able to change blade direction at the very last instant with his bladehand- even out to nearly full extension- to deal any evasion, parry, or counterattack that you might attempt.

Everything he does is to draw you into a downward spiral of his creation ending in your destruction.

His attacks are always layered. He doesn't really care if his first or second or third strike gets you because the next one or the one after that in the chain will. He is always thinking one or two steps further down the logic chain, trying to get you into a position where you can no longer escape the cut.

His constantly practices deception in footwork, body mobility, and attacks in order to create a tiny opening in time and space in which to safely and effectively get through another knifefighter's defenses. Imagine what he can do to you with your slower EH fighter's reflexes.

OK, so that gives you some idea of what you are up against. If you think I am exagerating...I'm not. Find a combatives instructor near you who is truly skilled with the knife and go at it. You'll see. That's why I say that it is critical that you and possibly some of your guys learn knifefighting- become knifefighters- from a skilled instructor if you hope to have a chance of surviving a skilled knifefighter EHed.

Now, how do you approach the problem. We train for this eventuality in realtime- full speed, full power with hard trainers ( and honestly even with live blades amongst the most skilled of us but I in no way advocate that) in every possible scenario that we can come up with and here is some of what we have learned:

1. If at all possible RUN! If you can't run initially, if an opening becomes available at any time RUN.

2. If you cannot run, and you have the luxury of time before the attack, never face a knifefighter EHed. A knife is best against a knife, but anything can be a weapon- your shoe, your belt, your hat, your shirt, a magazine or book, a garbage can lid, a can...anything. Find something and use it. But remember, if you haven't practiced using various impromptu weapons in your scenario training, they aren't going to help you nearly as much as if you are comfortable with them. Always train like you fight.

3. You cannot freeze or just give up when you see the knife. If you do, you are finished. EXHALE. BREATHE. Start moving, even if just a little. These things will unfreeze you.

4. Take your eyes off the knife. You are not fighting the knife, you are fighting the MAN. Don't lock eyes with your opponent either- it gives him too many ways to deceive you. Unfocus your vision and look through your opponent. Your peripheral vision is all about detecting movement- USE IT.

5. Relaxation is speed and speed is life in a knifefight. If your muscles are tense then you are slow and if you are slow you will die. Breathe and relax.

6. Move Move MOVE. A moving target is hard to hit squarely.

In training, you must really emphasize developing your ability to move your head and your body and your feet to evade random attacking non-cooperative knifewielding opponents.

7. Don't put up your hands as a fence or a barrier between you and your opponent. They will only get cut to ribbons no matter how fast you think you are. Keep your hands close in to your body. You must instead be constantly aware of the position and angle of the plane of your head, arms and body that faces your opponent. You must learn to feel where your safe- not safe transition is at all times and constantly move to keep safe.

8. You are better off (safer) evading a strike and hitting your opponent on the fly, but if you must parry be lightning quick. Make your parries destructions if you can.

9. Don't let your opponent get you back on your heels. He will overwhelm you. Keep your posture upright and your energy forward. Be aggressive. Take the fight to him. Get inside his OODA cycle and establish psychological dominance as soon as possible.

11. Again, move and hit on the fly.

12. You simply cannot afford to stay on the outside for very long. You must get inside the range of his knife and disrupt/destroy/disarm him as soon as you can. Again that means that your footwork and mobility and ability to see and capitalize on any opening that presents itself must be highly developed through constant training.

13. Other than through sheer dumb luck, disarms do not happen without first diminishing/disrupting the opponent physically, psychologically, or both. So break him down as much and as soon as you can and just let the disarm happen.

There are ways you can learn to use your hands/arms to make them much more effective. There are ways that you can learn to draw your opponent into a logic chain of your creation so that you can semi-reliably predict where his next strike will go. There are ways you can learn to absorb cuts and stabs to lessen their effect. Unfortunately all of these things are beyond the scope of the internet.

That's the basics- easily written, hard to do. It takes a lot of effective realtime realworld training to get to the point where you stand some sort of realistic chance EHed against a skilled knifefighter. Patterned flow drills and cooperative training partners will never get you there.

Have fun!

Amok!
Mario

"I respect you and your Art. Sadly, my knife does not." GT Leo Gaje, Jr.

"Getting out from under the short knife...now THAT takes skill" GT Leo Gaje, Jr.

 

[arnisador]

Great post!

 

[Cruentus]

Good post in terms of tactics.

One question...

I've personally been involved in half a dozen EH Vs knife fights and survived more or less intact- except for the deep emotional scars, that is .

What the heck are you doing in your life that has caused you to get in a half a dozen knife encounters empty handed?

Just curious...

:asian:

 

[Gaucho]

Arnisador ...thanks.

Paul...I grew up in inner-city San Franciso just outside of Chinatown during a time of serious social unrest. Later I went to medical school at UCSF- again in the middle of San Francisco next door to the Height. And later I did my residency training in Salinas during a time of serious gang/drug violence.

A serious attack could happen at any time throughout my childhood and through my 20s- especially given the places I had to be and the times I had to be there. I saw the older brother of my best friend- a gang leader but very much a protector of us little kids- killed in a knifefight when I was 8 yrs old. Literally half of my close friends did not live to see adulthood.

I've been attacked at one time or another by single attackers or multiples in a variety of ways. Its truly a wonder I am still alive and relatively unbroken .

I have to give thanks to my dad, who grew up much worse than I did and had (has) great streetfighting and weapons skills which he gave to me from an early age. I also have to thank my stars that my best friend's uncle at age 10 had just escaped from China where he had won the Shi I (full contact fighting competition). He agreed to teach my friend as a thank you to his brother for sponsoring him to come to the US. My friend needed a training partner and demanded that it be me . Uncle Chuk kicked my *** from here to tomorrow trying to get rid of my sorry white a** for a year before he finally resigned himself to the fact that he was stuck with me. I stayed and he taught me a lot and then wisely sent me on to other great teachers. I was a lucky boy for sure.

FYI, in all of those 6 EHs Vs knife fights, I had a pocketknife somewhere on me or near me but never had the time (or the need in some cases) to draw it before the fight was over.

Now I live in a (relatively) safe place, but those early lessons are always with me.

Best Regards,

Mario

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Gaucho
in all of those 6 EHs Vs knife fights, I had a pocketknife somewhere on me or near me but never had the time (or the need in some cases) to draw it before the fight was over.

I hear this story so often--a knife was on me but there was no time to get it.

A debate I hear often is teh "both hands on the wheel" strategy of grabbing the knife arm with both hands and using head butts and knee strikes to soften up the attacker vs. a Filipino-style passing maneuever to allow you to work in. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Gaucho]

Yeah it takes a lot of training in realtime to learn to draw your blade instantly from any position/situation.

As far as what's the best way to deal with the opponent's knife, now you're getting into the 'if this then that sort of thing' which is much easier to show in real life than to write about here.

It really depends on what your opponent is giving you to work with. His frame, his blade position, which way he is moving, how his attack comes in relative to your position. Every situation is unique and you must learn to go with the flow and solve the problem on the fly.

Doing slow sparring- where both partners stay at 70% speed or whatever and DON"T CHEAT- is very useful for working out the possibilities.

In general, it is easier/safer to clear to your opponent's outside, destroying/disrupting his bladearm and head as you go, and enter to finish and disarm.

Sometimes you can't get to the outside and in that case you need to enter to the inside just as soon as is possible and gain ctrl of the bladehand as you disrupt your opponent's structure.

Always remember too not to fixate on the guy with the knife in front of you because most likely several of his friends are encircling you to sucker you right now. Always keep your awareness expanded and fight as if you are fighting multiples even if you see only one. In training it is highly useful to turn most one on one scenarios into multiple attacker scenarios at some point during the engagement. It keeps everybody awake and moving and thinking in the right way.

Mario

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
I hear this story so often--a knife was on me but there was no time to get it.

A debate I hear often is teh "both hands on the wheel" strategy of grabbing the knife arm with both hands and using head butts and knee strikes to soften up the attacker vs. a Filipino-style passing maneuever to allow you to work in. What are your thoughts on this?

In My experience, when I had a knife on me, I did not have the time to get it out of my pocket or back pocket. Some of those times I was able to improvise a weapon, keys on a rope, etc,. already in the hand.

Pratice Practice and more Practice

As people have already said what I have said, it is just another data point.