Escaping the clinch

[gorilla2]

Just stand there and wait for the refs to break it up.

Personally, I'd likely escape it with an elbow strike. No, it's not legal under WT rules. I'd do it anyway. And you'd think twice about clinching next time. Assuming I didn't knock you out. Which, under WT rules, is a victory for me.

If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...

 

[skribs]

If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...

I'm not sure exactly how this works. A lot of the tournaments I've been to, people have been injured by dubious techniques and they're told they can keep fighting or quit, but if they quit then they forfeit. So the other person might lose a point from the penalty, or win the match from the forfeit.

I think that's one reason we don't do tournaments much at my school.

 

[gorilla2]

You are correct if they are hit with a dubious strike it will be a penalty...but if you KO someone with an illegal strike you will be DQ’d

 

[gorilla2]

BTW no warning in TKD every penalty a point is added...10 per match

 

[skribs]

You are correct if they are hit with a dubious strike it will be a penalty...but if you KO someone with an illegal strike you will be DQ’d

That's the thing. They weren't KO'd. But they didn't want to continue because they were already injured and didn't want to be injured more. I've seen this happen in adult divisions with mothers, I've seen it happen in 8-10 year old divisions. One of my students had a broken bloody nose (and we weren't sure about a concussion yet) and was told if he quit, the other kid would win.

He did quit, and the other kid did win.

There were a lot of bloody faces at the last tournament I went to, and we're talking mostly 8-12 year olds that were getting bloody. Broken noses, cut eyebrows, it was brutal. And these aren't kids who want to fight, but kids who want to have fun and gain confidence.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not sure exactly how this works. A lot of the tournaments I've been to, people have been injured by dubious techniques and they're told they can keep fighting or quit, but if they quit then they forfeit. So the other person might lose a point from the penalty, or win the match from the forfeit.

I think that's one reason we don't do tournaments much at my school.

I went to the US nationals twice and Olympic trials once in the 1980's(see bio). It was almost to the point of common that some competitors would take their two warnings before point deduction in hopes that a person would have to bow out. Broken noses and knee injuries were not unheard of. A part of the rules I am glad they cleaned up. At the trials I looked like a racoon from a solid punch to the nose during a clinch. It looked like I was in a pro wrestling match.

 

[skribs]

I went to the US nationals twice and Olympic trials once in the 1980's(see bio). It was almost to the point of common that some competitors would take their two warnings before point deduction in hopes that a person would have to bow out. Broken noses and knee injuries were not unheard of. A part of the rules I am glad they cleaned up. At the trials I looked like a racoon from a solid punch to the nose during a clinch. It looked like I was in a pro wrestling match.

Now you get 10 penalty points before you're DQ'd.

I had a student of mine, I was so mad at him. He was winning (like 15 points up even despite having all the points taken away) but he was so careless with his kicks he got DQ'd. But that was because he was careless, and not because he was malicious. Someone who is malicious has 9 tries to get you to quit.

 

[dvcochran]

Now you get 10 penalty points before you're DQ'd.

I had a student of mine, I was so mad at him. He was winning (like 15 points up even despite having all the points taken away) but he was so careless with his kicks he got DQ'd. But that was because he was careless, and not because he was malicious. Someone who is malicious has 9 tries to get you to quit.

That is just dangerously ridiculous. Unless they are calling a lot more than they used to. There simply were no excessive contact penalties. You are talking about Olympic sparring rules?

 

[skribs]

That is just dangerously ridiculous. Unless they are calling a lot more than they used to. There simply were no excessive contact penalties. You are talking about Olympic sparring rules?

You have targets where you can and can't hit. You can hit the wrong target 9 times and not be DQ'd. It takes 10 penalties to be DQ'd.

It's actually gotten worse lately, because I think the face has become a legal target. It used to only be the helmet, but now anything above the bottom of the helmet is legal.

 

[dvcochran]

You have targets where you can and can't hit. You can hit the wrong target 9 times and not be DQ'd. It takes 10 penalties to be DQ'd.

It's actually gotten worse lately, because I think the face has become a legal target. It used to only be the helmet, but now anything above the bottom of the helmet is legal.

I was not aware it ever changed. One benefit of the added padding over the ear was to identify how far back on the head was a point. But it was never a penalty to inadvertently hit any part of the head. For example hitting the back of the head with a spinning kick was not a point but not a penalty either. Of course some areas were not a point, but the face definitely was.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...

Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.

 

[dvcochran]

Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.

Based on the intended purpose it is not ridiculous. Because it is not as classical as say boxing it is not as easily understood. Therein lies the problem. From a sport mindset TKD has made great strides to be an Olympic sport since 1988. The never ending rate of change within the sport and aggressive use of technology further complicates understanding the sport. I hope they eventually find a scoring process and stick with it. Then it can start to be understood by the casual spectator. Boxing has been around a very long time as a sport and I imagine it has had some similar hurdles. The simplicity of boxing is part of what makes it so elegant to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Based on the intended purpose it is not ridiculous. Because it is not as classical as say boxing it is not as easily understood. Therein lies the problem. From a sport mindset TKD has made great strides to be an Olympic sport since 1988. The never ending rate of change within the sport and aggressive use of technology further complicates understanding the sport. I hope they eventually find a scoring process and stick with it. Then it can start to be understood by the casual spectator. Boxing has been around a very long time as a sport and I imagine it has had some similar hurdles. The simplicity of boxing is part of what makes it so elegant to me.

I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.

 

[skribs]

I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.

It depends on what happens.

Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin. The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand. The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting. Because the medic has cleared you, your option is to continue or forfeit.

Now let's say I punch you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." I am disqualified.
Or I kick you with a really hard kick to the knee. The medic says "you have a torn ligament, you cannot continue." I am disqualified.

Now let's say I kick you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." The ref says "it was a legal hit." I win by knockout.

 

[skribs]

Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.

I still don't know if falling down while scoring a point, if the point scores or if it doesn't count because it was scored during a penalty.

Getting a 4-point spinning hook and taking 1 point of penalty is a decent trade-off, unless the 4 points doesn't count.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It depends on what happens.

Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin. The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand. The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting. Because the medic has cleared you, your option is to continue or forfeit.

Now let's say I punch you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." I am disqualified.
Or I kick you with a really hard kick to the knee. The medic says "you have a torn ligament, you cannot continue." I am disqualified.

Now let's say I kick you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." The ref says "it was a legal hit." I win by knockout.

I can see the point there. I just think a big foul - big enough to make the other person not able or willing to continue - should be a DQ. Hard to make that fair in the rules, though - folks would game it from the other side.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I still don't know if falling down while scoring a point, if the point scores or if it doesn't count because it was scored during a penalty.

Getting a 4-point spinning hook and taking 1 point of penalty is a decent trade-off, unless the 4 points doesn't count.

Thank you for demonstrating one reason (of many) why the WT ruleset is ridiculous.

 

[skribs]

I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.

That's the problem with a lot of rules. I was trying to figure out how to make rules for a board game, and it's a nightmare.

 

[gorilla2]

It depends on what happens.

Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin. The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand. The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting. Because the medic has cleared you, your option is to continue or forfeit.

Now let's say I punch you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." I am disqualified.
Or I kick you with a really hard kick to the knee. The medic says "you have a torn ligament, you cannot continue." I am disqualified.

Now let's say I kick you in the face and knock you out. The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue." The ref says "it was a legal hit." I win by knockout.

100% correct

 

[gorilla2]

100% correct

I also had trouble understand that 'clinch' isn't clinch but something else. Getting close? Then I viewed some TKD Clinching videos and what did I see. Clinching. Not just getting up close but wrapping their arms around each other. Not that anything was done in the clinch but, it was a clinch.

So now I'm even more confused.

The clinch used by “many” not all to stop the action...many fighters work out of the clinch and score...there is danger in working out of the clinch...you can get kicked in the head... many different strategies in the clinch depending on the strengths of each fighter...