Engine(?)

wckf92

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A lot of you on this forum (and others) use the term 'engine' of WC, as if its a fairly common term; but I'd never heard of it until reading posts and threads here or on KFO.

What does this term mean? Is it simply a reference to 'body structure'? Horse? How WC uses elbows? Other? etc?

Thanks.
 

geezer

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"Engine", as I hear it used, refers to the particular mechanism for power generation in a system. That's the product of the interaction of body movement and structure, passed through a kinetic linkage and ultimately transferred to the target. All martial arts have "engines", but like cars, different brands have different engines ...and very different ways of conceptualizing them.

BTW I hope the answer above is mostly correct, or else I have been misunderstanding a lot of posts over the years! :D
 
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wckf92

wckf92

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"Engine", as I hear it used, refers to the particular mechanism for power generation in a system. That's the product of the interaction of body movement and structure, passed through a kinetic linkage and ultimately transferred to the target. All martial arts have "engines", but like cars, different brands have different engines ...and very different ways of conceptualizing them.

BTW I hope the answer above is mostly correct, or else I have been misunderstanding a lot of posts over the years! :D

Thx Geezer.
So, could you provide an example of using the "LT engine" (for context)? As I understand it, your 'WT' emphasizes elbow...is that correct? So if I pair your "shift one foot at a time" with "elbow force" do I get the basic idea of a WT "engine"?
Hope that comes through clearly...(?)
 

geezer

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The "engine" I use does emphasize "elbow power", but my elbow power ain't all that great by itself. I punch a lot harder if I combine it with the turn or step so that I get more body power into it.

Since the WT punch is short, you really have to put all the parts of the linkage together: ankle (or step), knee, hip, spine, shoulder, elbow, and wrist ...all in a relaxed way, timed to build on each other like a wave or whip.

Maybe those are the "seven bows" a certain person goes on and on about on those long videos where he never demonstrates anything? I prefer the following clip by Emin. At last I can understand him:

 

Cephalopod

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I like the way that Emin doesn't even glance over, at 2:22, to see that his Uke landed safely. o_O

No, scratch that. I don't like it.

Good power tho'!
 

Danny T

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A lot of you on this forum (and others) use the term 'engine' of WC, as if its a fairly common term; but I'd never heard of it until reading posts and threads here or on KFO.

What does this term mean? Is it simply a reference to 'body structure'? Horse? How WC uses elbows? Other? etc?

Thanks.
Myself.
Engine in a human? An engine is a mechanically device that converts energy into mechanical motion for a specific purpose. I don't get it.
Power is the rate at which work is done or energy emitted or transferred over a specific length of time.
Power in the human body is generated by muscle expansion and contraction, the effects of that can be increased by causing the body to rotate and by causing displacement of the body increasing the effects of momentum. Muscle in the body is used to move any of the part of the skeleton which in turn is the mechanical motion. The elbow proper is unable to create energy or convert energy into mechanical motion therefore cannot be an engine (in can change the direction of mechanical motion).
How an individual utilizes the expansion and contraction of the muscles is the only thing I can understand as being an engine. Which muscles are use, when, and for how long are all of extreme importance.
 
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wckf92

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Myself.
Engine in a human? An engine is a mechanically device that converts energy into mechanical motion for a specific purpose. I don't get it.
Power is the rate at which work is done or energy emitted or transferred over a specific length of time.
Power in the human body is generated by muscle expansion and contraction, the effects of that can be increased by causing the body to rotate and by causing displacement of the body increasing the effects of momentum. Muscle in the body is used to move any of the part of the skeleton which in turn is the mechanical motion. The elbow proper is unable to create energy or convert energy into mechanical motion therefore cannot be an engine (in can change the direction of mechanical motion).
How an individual utilizes the expansion and contraction of the muscles is the only thing I can understand as being an engine. Which muscles are use, when, and for how long are all of extreme importance.

Thx Danny.
Yeah, my conundrum with saying ___ martial art has ___ engine is my belief that the human body is one single unit and should be trained and used together as one single unit.
I recall a post or thread somewhere on here that said "so and so" is using WC but with a different engine so I've always been a bit confused as to what an 'engine' is.
Does boxing have its own particular 'engine' that is different to a WC 'engine'...which is different to a Karate 'engine'...a MT 'engine'...a Tai Chi 'engine' etc?
Dunno........
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Does boxing have its own particular 'engine' that is different to a WC 'engine'...which is different to a Karate 'engine'...a MT 'engine'...a Tai Chi 'engine' etc?
Dunno........
The question should be asked is if you have cross trained WC, Karate, MT, Taiji, which engine will you use?
 
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wckf92

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The question should be asked is if you have cross trained WC, Karate, MT, Taiji, which engine will you use?

I've trained in lots of styles/systems...but if I'm interpreting your post correctly you are saying that the entire 'system' or style is "the engine"? Is that correct?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I've trained in lots of styles/systems...but if I'm interpreting your post correctly you are saying that the entire 'system' or style is "the engine"? Is that correct?
Sometime an "engine" can only be used in that particular MA system. For example, the WC engine cannot be used in the long fist system and vise verse. If you want to experience more MA systems, you will need to know how to "combine different engines and make it into your own engine". That engine may have

- 70% WC and 30% long fist, or
- 50% WC and 50% long fist, or
- 30% WC and 70% long fist.

IMO, that will be your own final engine. That was also how the following MA systems were created:

- Xing Yi Liu He,
- Mizong Louhan,
- Taiji mantis,
- Baji mantis,
- ...

Is it possible to create a long fist WC, or WC long fist? I don't think it's possible. Both engines just have too much difference.
 
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wckf92

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Sometime an "engine" can only be used in that particular MA system. For example, the WC engine .

That's part of the issue...I'm trying to understand what constitutes the WC engine.
Maybe it is different things to different practitioners or different lineages(?).
 

Danny T

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The way power is developed in WC is the exact same as any other human movement.
It is in the how, when, and where one moves in relation to other parts of the body as well as the opponent. It is in how the force being applied to you is received, deflected or stopped. But it is still by electrical impulses which either expand or contract the muscles. The talk of 'engines' is a marketing term or just a different term to explain or make what you do different. We are human bio mechanical organisms that use electrical impulses to contract or expand muscles which pull or release tension on tendons. It is in the positioning of the body and/or the limbs in a particular configuration that by moving the skeleton creating the affect we are looking for. There is nothing special or different than using this recent term of engine to describe how a human moves differently in one system vs another.

The term Engine comes from the Latin ingenium, meaning ingenious...having a special skill or cleverness in design or designing contrivance causing something of special interest to seem to function in an unbelievable manner. It was meaning: skillfully and inventively to trick, to use pretenses, or to have dishonest plans...a ploy or hoax.
 

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If I was forced to define 'engine' in the context of WC it would go something like this:

My awareness of the alignment of my bones and the tension of my muscles that allow me to receive force by directing it through my body, down my legs to my feet and into the ground. Conversely it allows me to deliver power by connecting to the ground and using it as a backstop from which to launch explosively starting at my legs and working it's way through my body to my, for example, fist.

Personally I think that talking too much about this engine gets confusing to a person who is genuinely trying to grok WC, and can be a bit of a distraction. Sort of like talking too much about chi.
It's something that has to be developed over time through dedicated training (kung fu anyone?) and everyone's development is a little different. I may have the best intentions trying to help a student understand what I feel when I receive and deliver power, but often I'm better off having them train the right exercises with the right people, emphasizing the right aspects, and letting them learn the feel for themselves.

However, talking about 'engine' does make for excellent half-hour youtube vids with absolutely no action.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What's the difference between the following weapon design?

1. riffle - accuracy, far distance single shot (ex long fist).
2. machine gun, - fast multiple bullets (ex WC).
3. grenade - explosive power (ex Baji).

IMO, WC is more like the machine gun engine than the riffle engine, or the grenade engine.
 
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wckf92

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What's the difference between the following weapon design?

1. riffle - accuracy, far distance single shot (ex long fist).
2. machine gun, - fast multiple bullets (ex WC).
3. grenade - explosive power (ex Baji).

IMO, WC is more like the machine gun engine than the riffle engine, or the grenade engine.

Interesting.
IMO, WC encompasses all three of your examples. But, to be fair I don't know much at all about long fist
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Interesting.
IMO, WC encompasses all three of your examples. But, to be fair I don't know much at all about long fist
A long fist punch require you to have your

- back shoulder,
- chest,
- front shoulder,
- punching arm,

are all in a perfect straight line.

You can't design a weapon that can have all functions as riffle, machine gun, and grenade because they are "mutual exclusive" in design.

For example, In order to have

- long reach (riffle), you need to rotate your body.
- fast shooting (machine gun), you can't rotate your body.
- maximum power (grenade), you need to compress your body.
 

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Engine is a dumb term, all human bodies have the same basic framework. When discussing human movement we should refer to kineseology. There are optimal ways to move to maximize efficiency, power, speed etc. Most martial arts styles have a great deal of overlap in human movement , especially in basic training. Style specific movements are generally relegated to intermediate & advanced stages of learning, with little introduced in beginning phase, outside of core structure. Different types of human engine do not exist, why martial arts systems move they way they do are based on principles used and tactics. People interpret differently and try to maximize based on use of said tactics & principles. Some methods are better than others based on the context of environment or situation. There are only so many logical and useful ways a person can punch, kick, grab, push, pull etc. Anything beyond this is artistic interpretation and strategic approach. Simply because one person prefers method X over method Z doesn't mean the gross mechanics are completely different, just the nuances.
 
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KPM

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A lot of you on this forum (and others) use the term 'engine' of WC, as if its a fairly common term; but I'd never heard of it until reading posts and threads here or on KFO.

What does this term mean? Is it simply a reference to 'body structure'? Horse? How WC uses elbows? Other? etc?

Thanks.

 

geezer

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However, talking about 'engine' does make for excellent half-hour youtube vids with absolutely no action.

Yep. If I'm not mistaken you are referring to the long videos by the same "certain person" I referred to in post #4 above. That guy is the first I heard to use the term, and yeah, it was kinda sketchy. Probably what Danny and Nobody were thinking of too.

On the other hand, if people are just using the term "engine" simply as shorthand for "method of power generation", I don't really have a problem. I thought KPM's video was very clear and straightforward. And he used the term "engine" a lot. :)
 
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