Elliptical Motion

[KenpoEMT]

Great discussion here .

 

[distalero]

The other thing to consider is that a learned response must come from an experience, and/or many experiences that result from conditioning. QUOTE]


...which is another definition of Kenpo practice. So...with long and focused MA practice, need there be exclusive catagories of primal perception/reflex action vs. learned response? Can't one type shape or "inform" the other, in effect with no "senority", as it were, from the midbrain?

 

[Simon Curran]

Right on! and LOL Simon :rofl:

Glad I could amuse with my plight.:ultracool

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The other thing to consider is that a learned response must come from an experience, and/or many experiences that result from conditioning. QUOTE]


...which is another definition of Kenpo practice. So...with long and focused MA practice, need there be exclusive catagories of primal perception/reflex action vs. learned response? Can't one type shape or "inform" the other, in effect with no "senority", as it were, from the midbrain?

These are excellent questions. The short answer is it’s possible to condition a new response because reflexes are adaptive for survival, but since reflexes are innate, involuntary and strongly ingrained responses to certain stimuli it is hard to completely extinguish reflexive responses to, and fears of, such stimuli. Consistency of training is very important in an effort to produce newly learned responses because of this, and because they can diminish or revert back through extinction and spontaneous recovery.

With extinction there is a gradual weakening and eventual disappearance of the conditioned response tendency. Extinction occurs from multiple presentations of the conditioned response without the unconditioned stimulus. Similarily, with spontaneous recovery sometimes there will be a reappearance of a response that had been thought to be extinguished. The recovery can occur after a period of non-exposure to the conditioned stimulus. It is called spontaneous because the response seems to reappear out of nowhere.

Meaning that if you are not training consistently to elicit the desired response the subject may revert back to their instinctual reflexive response.

In understanding just what the involuntary reflexes are we can influence, condition or attempt to shape them. An understanding of, for instance, defensive postures can strengthen our ability to supress them when desired, as well as help us to recognize and use those responses against our opponents who may not have had the benefit of conditioning for supression.

 

[distalero]

Thanks . I should have mentioned suppression; it's a basic concept, certainly a necessity, in MA. What I think I've noticed has been a sort of two-staged response elicited by a surprise attack: the original reflexive posture, very quickly replaced by a learned action, sometimes with almost no distinction/time between stages. May be the most, that the most of us can hope for; I'll take it, anyhow.

 

[Doc]

Thanks . I should have mentioned suppression; it's a basic concept, certainly a necessity, in MA. What I think I've noticed has been a sort of two-staged response elicited by a surprise attack: the original reflexive posture, very quickly replaced by a learned action, sometimes with almost no distinction/time between stages. May be the most, that the most of us can hope for; I'll take it, anyhow.

The difference, at least for what we teach, is those reflexes are already correct. And rather than attempt to suppress them, we simply augment them into a positive response beyond the initial startle reflex. As an example, our mthodology of teach kenpo Blocks is in-house defined as "Reflex Blocking." Students don't learn something so much as new, but rather extend the old.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The difference, at least for what we teach, is those reflexes are already correct. And rather than attempt to suppress them, we simply augment them into a positive response beyond the initial startle reflex. As an example, our methodology of teach kenpo Blocks is in-house defined as "Reflex Blocking." Students don't learn something so much as new, but rather extend the old.

Once again Doc that's a very thoughtful solution :asian: , since suppression of these reflexes is difficult and can be unreliable. In some ways, in some instances, many of us may incidentally do this, without having conceptualized it that way, as distelero may have inadvertently done. This can be seen in his explanation of seeing no distinction at times between the two reactions. However, Doc, yours is a perfect example of the importance of understanding in greater detail the distinction between involultary and voluntary or learned behavior, which can further lead to purposeful manipulation for what may more likely be the desired or positive outcome. I like it a lot!

The first time my instructor surprise attacked me with a club I took a classic reflexive defensive posture. I was a brand new student and was shocked by the suddenness of the attack. I found my reaction curious - not realizing at the time it was a primitive instinct prompted by the looming club. I crouched down and crossed my arms over my head and grimaced with my eyes squinted. (it looked very cool :uhyeah: ) I have since learned to turn that reaction to the stimulus of a looming anything near my head into a block. However, I can not rely on this reaction alone if fighting for my life, for the danger in the studio is only implied.

So an important thing in terms of this type of conditioning is that the training or conditioning be as close to reality as is possible. For we know that we are not in actuality in grave danger in our daily training sessions, and it is the feeling of actual danger that brings out the reflexive response. Unless we test this in reality, which is to me foolish unless we are doing it as law officers and is a result of on the job necessity, we can not guarantee that our conditioning will override our strong internal reflexive reactions, but I do think that building on those reactions could increase the odds of a successful outcome, but based on everything I know about behavioral science, even this would need to be consistently trained.

MJ :asian:

 

[Doc]

Once again Doc that's a very thoughtful solution :asian: , since suppression of these reflexes is difficult and can be unreliable. In some ways, in some instances, many of us may incidentally do this, without having conceptualized it that way, as distelero may have inadvertently done. This can be seen in his explanation of seeing no distinction at times between the two reactions. However, Doc, yours is a perfect example of the importance of understanding in greater detail the distinction between involultary and voluntary or learned behavior, which can further lead to purposeful manipulation for what may more likely be the desired or positive outcome. I like it a lot! [/color]

The first time my instructor surprise attacked me with a club I took a classic reflexive defensive posture. I was a brand new student and was shocked by the suddenness of the attack. I found my reaction curious - not realizing at the time it was a primitive instinct prompted by the looming club. I crouched down and crossed my arms over my head and grimaced with my eyes squinted. (it looked very cool :uhyeah: ) I have since learned to turn that reaction to the stimulus of a looming anything near my head into a block. However, I can not rely on this reaction alone if fighting for my life, for the danger in the studio is only implied.

So an important thing in terms of this type of conditioning is that the training or conditioning be as close to reality as is possible. For we know that we are not in actuality in grave danger in our daily training sessions, and it is the feeling of actual danger that brings out the reflexive response. Unless we test this in reality, which is to me foolish unless we are doing it as law officers and is a result of on the job necessity, we can not guarantee that our conditioning will override our strong internal reflexive reactions, but I do think that building on those reactions could increase the odds of a successful outcome, but based on everything I know about behavioral science, even this would need to be consistently trained.

MJ :asian:

... as we do, and consistently recognize the importance of AST, "Adrenal Stress Training" once material has been properly internalized. I have often advocated this type of training, which I note is difficult for young and or emotionally fragil students to handle sometimes. Thus my selection process to eliminate students incapable of dealing with artificially induced external stress. Extending reactions beyond startle reflex, and then "hardening" those "learned reflex extensions" and synaptic pathways, (soft muscle memory) to the effects of an "Adrenal Dump" are a primary goal not everyone wants to experience. Everyone is capable, but not everyone will allow themselves to be subjected to the training.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

... as we do, and consistently recognize the importance of AST, "Adrenal Stress Training" once material has been properly internalized. I have often advocated this type of training, which I note is difficult for young and or emotionally fragil students to handle sometimes. Thus my selection process to eliminate students incapable of dealing with artificially induced external stress. Extending reactions beyond startle reflex, and then "hardening" those "learned reflex extensions" and synaptic pathways, (soft muscle memory) to the effects of an "Adrenal Dump" are a primary goal not everyone wants to experience. Everyone is capable, but not everyone will allow themselves to be subjected to the training.

Doc, a light bulb just went off. :idea: I now better understand your concept of the "adrenal dump". Thanks for the elaboration. It makes more sense in this context to me. It is understandable why some would not desire this type of training, but it seems it would be worthwhile for others to apply what they can, at the very least in terms of reality training, to their own routine.

MJ :asian:

 

[distalero]

Interesting stuff; goes to things I've observed in my time (Distalero is an aging critter). I would mention that there seem to be (I'm qualifying all the way through this and will defer to those more knowledgeable) basic responses superimposed over the most basic one: fight or flight (which for most of us not "at arms" usually occurs the other way around). Said a different way, there are apparent responses (reflexes?) that seem to belong to protection/fighting and which seem to be predicated on however unconsciously deciding to "stay there", and another response, which apparently comes before this: turning your back and running like hell. Turning your back as a response is less than perfect , but I've seen it, even when those backs were already against a wall. I think we, as MA practitioners, learn to suppress this as an initial response (admittedly it's not strong; the call to flight may break through if the stress goes on long enough). If there's a pause while the midbrain debates the issue, it's a very short and not particularly conscious one for us.

 

[Doc]

Interesting stuff; goes to things I've observed in my time (Distalero is an aging critter). I would mention that there seem to be (I'm qualifying all the way through this and will defer to those more knowledgeable) basic responses superimposed over the most basic one: fight or flight (which for most of us not "at arms" usually occurs the other way around). Said a different way, there are apparent responses (reflexes?) that seem to belong to protection/fighting and which seem to be predicated on however unconsciously deciding to "stay there", and another response, which apparently comes before this: turning your back and running like hell. Turning your back as a response is less than perfect , but I've seen it, even when those backs were already against a wall. I think we, as MA practitioners, learn to suppress this as an initial response (admittedly it's not strong; the call to flight may break through if the stress goes on long enough). If there's a pause while the midbrain debates the issue, it's a very short and not particularly conscious one for us.

The key is to not confuse "response" with "reflex." How you respond to a given external stimulus will be AFTER the activation of the "Startle Reflex."

 

[Doc]

Doc, a light bulb just went off. :idea: I now better understand your concept of the "adrenal dump". Thanks for the elaboration. It makes more sense in this context to me. It is understandable why some would not desire this type of training, but it seems it would be worthwhile for others to apply what they can, at the very least in terms of reality training, to their own routine.
MJ :asian:

Here's the problem; The Adrenal Dump is a very real human physical reaction to externally induced stress factors. It can additionally be as much emotional (psychological) as it is physical. It is not about "will" or desire, nor can you train yourself to deal with it on a limited basis. You must pull the trigger all the way back and let it fly or you're not firing the gun. To do so would be akin to learning to swim on the internet and than expect that would be sufficient should you be pushed in deep rapidly moving water. The physical manesfistation of the "Adrenal Dump" is absolutely debilitating to anyone who has not "hardened" (or seasoned as Mr. Parker used to say) their synaptic pathways to its affects. You either "get wet" and learn to swim, or stand on dry land and pretend that you can swim. On the beach everyone is a great swimmer.

 

[Jagdish]

Do profesional killers, special forces members and other types of soldiers go through any special training to avoid being influenced by the adrenal pump or it's a matter of practicing their craft? How come some of them seem to be emotionless?

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Here's the problem; The Adrenal Dump is a very real human physical reaction to externally induced stress factors. It can additionally be as much emotional (psychological) as it is physical. It is not about "will" or desire, nor can you train yourself to deal with it on a limited basis. You must pull the trigger all the way back and let it fly or you're not firing the gun. To do so would be akin to learning to swim on the internet and than expect that would be sufficient should you be pushed in deep rapidly moving water. The physical manesfistation of the "Adrenal Dump" is absolutely debilitating to anyone who has not "hardened" (or seasoned as Mr. Parker used to say) their synaptic pathways to its affects. You either "get wet" and learn to swim, or stand on dry land and pretend that you can swim. On the beach everyone is a great swimmer.

The closest I can come to trying to really relate to what you describe in terms of the psychological component is my experience in solo skydiving (before the days of the tandem dive). You can try to prepare yourself for every eventuality in the classroom, but it is not until you actually take the leap that you truly test your ability to function and cope in order to bring yourself back to safety. In my instance, the preparation did not produce the dump but rather the on the job training did. In the case of skydiving the dangers described to us in the classroom were serious and impressionable, but could never compare to the moment my chute failed to open properly in reality. I'm not sure if anything could have prepared me to deal with the feelings associated with that moment. I can say from experience it is not for the faint of heart to experience this type of danger, but once I recovered from the initial shock of the moment I was able to utilize the knowledge I had learned in the classroom to rectify the situation.

Can experiencing other types of stressful situations produce the same benefits as the reality of jumping in the deep end in learning to cope with and recover from the authentic feelings produced during a moment of true danger?

 

[Jagdish]

Also can the adrenal pump be controlled or avoided?

 

[Jagdish]

Can the adrenal pump be avoided? Can someone under external stress perform or act just relaxed?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The prolonged stress response experienced by spec ops gents eventually leads to (and there's a running joke in psych about the number of syllables this syndrome has gained with each passing generation) shell shock/battle fatigue/Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. As far as looking cool, well...after a spell, it becomes your high; your morning cup of coffee gets replaced with a stiff jolt of adrenaline, and you do eventually learn to think quite clearly under the influences of adrenaline. Matter of fact, you get so hooked on it, that you eventually can't think without it (or some chemical version of it). While it may seperate the men from the boys in the heat of combat when it comes to experiencing "battle glory" rush instead of "jitters", I would avoid seeking the state voluntarily.

Few people in life will be in prolonged, intense enough situations to become dependent on this bodily-manufactured drug. Don't envy those who are on high long enough to get hooked...living in the real world is never the same after returning from the edges. Make your training intense enough to not be surprised by the shakes and heart-in-throat thing if and when it happens, but dont get too out there with it. We aren't a warrior society anymore, and home hardly has a place for those challenged by the doldrums of daily life.

It'll be interesting to see what they rename the addiction/withdrawel syndrome this time, when our boys come back from the sands.

Regards,

D.

 

[distalero]

Amen. In my mild example (and I had just a few experiences getting caught in the "stuff", because my primary MOS was a non combatant one (for what good THAT did)), the shakes came afterwards. Involuntary. So did another apparent reflex that hasn't been discussed here: involuntary loss of bladder control during the "event" (thinkin' this would be effective in sparring, though ). This all happened a long time ago but maybe it's this that causes me to accept that suppression of the initial flight response is worth considering as a learned response (at least an exposure) in MA; a subtlety maybe, but it's there. Some didn't suppress it back then, and didn't end up well because of it (neither choice was a good one), which brings me to add something to the truth of your great post: surviving. Addiction to adrenaline may exist at the same time with survivor's guilt; it's a chemical payoff, but perhaps secondary in episodic reunion with probable death. So, what I've learned today...adrenal dump as a physiological response is just what your physiology does and it has to be addressed in training, can't be "avoided". What I've known for a long time (and to add to the answer to Jagdish) the masks you see are just that, or even worse: permanent disability. As Doc mentions, the psychological effect is always there and also can't be avoided. This truth is why Hell has two big evil looking, but actually friendly dogs at the entrance, suggesting you walk away.

 

[Dan G]

The closest I can come to trying to really relate to what you describe in terms of the psychological component is my experience in solo skydiving (before the days of the tandem dive). You can try to prepare yourself for every eventuality in the classroom, but it is not until you actually take the leap that you truly test your ability to function and cope in order to bring yourself back to safety. In my instance, the preparation did not produce the dump but rather the on the job training did. In the case of skydiving the dangers described to us in the classroom were serious and impressionable, but could never compare to the moment my chute failed to open properly in reality. I'm not sure if anything could have prepared me to deal with the feelings associated with that moment. I can say from experience it is not for the faint of heart to experience this type of danger, but once I recovered from the initial shock of the moment I was able to utilize the knowledge I had learned in the classroom to rectify the situation.

Can experiencing other types of stressful situations produce the same benefits as the reality of jumping in the deep end in learning to cope with and recover from the authentic feelings produced during a moment of true danger?

:asian:

Hi MJ, it sounds like your experience is right up there at the extreme end, and I reckon your opinion is definitely worth listening to. What is your take on stress training/training for stress based on your experience?

respectfully

Dan

 

[Jagdish]

May some type of therapy help to recover the inner balance for the ones who are hooked to the adrenal pump?

Yours,

Jagdish