Elliptical Motion

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

MJ:

Thank you for one of the most pleasant posts I've read here in quite a spell. It made me feel all fuzzy inside to see a mind in motion. There is yet hope for the academic (and not just grab-&-beat) future of kenpo.

Warmest Regards,

D.

 

[Doc]

Okay, I'm beginning to see the light now. Strikes that don't connect, or that aren't deadly powerful aren't necessarily ineffective. If the intent for the strike is to get the opponent to react in some specific manner, then landing the strike with all the power your have is essentially irrelevant.

I'll have to ponder more on this...

Thank you again sir.

Yes sir. I'm told by one of my students who has some experience with "Systema," that they have similar methodologies.

 

[Doc]

Interesting point Doc that the response may be there even if we don't see it, and it got me to metacognate or think about thinking. I would add that while the reponse happens to the conscious the reflex action results from subconscious prompts. This is because stimuli such as sudden movements or bright lights trigger our midbrain vision and hearing centers. These areas of the brain are responsible for our reflexive reactions or defensive postures such as crouching from loud noises, and focusing our attention on moving objects or other dangerous stimuli. The human brain developed both auditory and optic lobes through the evolutionary process and relates back to our amphibian ancestors. As amphibians became land dwelling creatures they developed both auditory and visual acuity as an adaptation to their new environment. These older areas of the human brain are responsible for our unconscious reflexive reactions to certain dangerous stimuli. They enable us to turn our eyes and ears on possible danger before our forebrain is even aware, on a conscious level, that danger may exist.

This reflex will occur because the midbrain acts as our audiovisual processing center prompting us to unconsciously react - however subtle that reaction may be. It is difficult to control this response because it occurs in the unconscious mind and is a primal response to possible danger.

For further thought...if a groin strike is obscured (such as in the case of say a palm heel to the chin that is followed by an obscured kick to the groin) with the stimulus removed, would the initial response to the groin strike itself then be reactionary?

of course, but once again, they would not "bend over."

 

[jonah2]

....This reflex will occur because the midbrain acts as our audiovisual processing center prompting us to unconsciously react - however subtle that reaction may be. It is difficult to control this response because it occurs in the unconscious mind and is a primal response to possible danger....

This interests me - We were shown the experiment a few years ago with the 'reach' for the groin area to observe the natural reaction to, as Doc says, withdraw the pelvis.

I am curious to see if this is a 'primal response' or a learned reaction. At the time I carried out an experiment of my own with two other subjects. The first was my partner and she moved away as male subject would. The second was my then three year old son and he did not flinch (I will state that no contact was made on either and they were not aware of the intent of the experiment).

So is it a primal reaction or a learned response from the first painfull contact - I dont know. The same withdraw reaction can be gained by making a thrust towards someones face too.

Jonah

 

[mj-hi-yah]

This interests me - We were shown the experiment a few years ago with the 'reach' for the groin area to observe the natural reaction to, as Doc says, withdraw the pelvis.

I am curious to see if this is a 'primal response' or a learned reaction. At the time I carried out an experiment of my own with two other subjects. The first was my partner and she moved away as male subject would. The second was my then three year old son and he did not flinch (I will state that no contact was made on either and they were not aware of the intent of the experiment).

Jonah

Interesting Jonah. I would contend that it is a primal response. The subject needs to be threatened, and while for a few reasons I don't recommend using a 3 year old test subject it is possible that your son was not startled because he instinctually did not experience the feeling of danger here. In other words the movement toward your 3 year old may not have been threatening enough, but for psychological reasons for one I wouldn't test that. There are other variables as well though, such as individual sensory acuity that would need to be tested to prove this in your case.

So is it a primal reaction or a learned response from the first painfull contact - I dont know. The same withdraw reaction can be gained by making a thrust towards someones face too.

Again I think it's a primal response. Good observation concerning the thrust towards a person's face. Our startle reflex is involuntary and triggers protective movements that withdraw the body and its parts out of harms way. Doc also mentioned the blink and there are others. Drawing the shoulders up, grimacing, flexing the knee and elbow joints and neck are a few other examples. The body will automatically take on certain defensive postures as well as submissive gestures when we are physically, emotionally or socially threatened.

The other thing to consider is that a learned response must come from an experience, and/or many experiences that result from conditioning. Did your test subjects experience this (taking painful groin strikes) prior to your test? If so, you might want to test the variable of also using subjects who did not have any prior experiences with having taken a painful groin strike.

of course, but once again, they would not "bend over."

Thanks Doc agreed, not as their initial reaction...

Thank you for one of the most pleasant posts I've read here in quite a spell. It made me feel all fuzzy inside to see a mind in motion. There is yet hope for the academic (and not just grab-&-beat) future of kenpo.

Dr. Dave let me just take this opportunity to say that I always enjoy and learn from reading your thoughtful, intelligent posts and thanks. :asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

This interests me - We were shown the experiment a few years ago with the 'reach' for the groin area to observe the natural reaction to, as Doc says, withdraw the pelvis.

I am curious to see if this is a 'primal response' or a learned reaction. At the time I carried out an experiment of my own with two other subjects. The first was my partner and she moved away as male subject would. The second was my then three year old son and he did not flinch (I will state that no contact was made on either and they were not aware of the intent of the experiment).

So is it a primal reaction or a learned response from the first painfull contact - I dont know. The same withdraw reaction can be gained by making a thrust towards someones face too.

Jonah

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/wmv/kozak.wmv

As you can see from this video, the reflex is a learned response to stimulus, it's not something we do from birth. If you'll notice, neither child was reactant to the leg coming at them.

 

[jonah2]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/wmv/kozak.wmv As you can see from this video, the reflex is a learned response to stimulus, it's not something we do from birth. If you'll notice, neither child was reactant to the leg coming at them.

Mr O'Briant,

First off - ouch. Hope the child was ok.

They didn't react cause they didn't see it comming and had no expectation that it would have - until BAM!!

The test I carried out with my son - I made sure he was watching me reached forward and back slowly at first to within about 6 inches then fired out a jab again pulling back at around 6 inches away - and no reaction.

I kind of agree with Mj-hi-yah's statement about the perceived threat though - after all, as far as he is concearned I am his dad and I would not inflict pain, even if the reach out towards him was over 3/4 full speed.

Interesting

jonah

 

[pete]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/wmv/kozak.wmv

As you can see from this video, the reflex is a learned response to stimulus, it's not something we do from birth. If you'll notice, neither child was reactant to the leg coming at them.

another example: http://www.geocities.com/daniphil_11721/attach.gif

 

[DavidCC]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/wmv/kozak.wmv

As you can see from this video, the reflex is a learned response to stimulus, it's not something we do from birth. If you'll notice, neither child was reactant to the leg coming at them.

Hmm I guess we need to re-evaluate the uefulness of spinning kicks... ROFL

 

[DavidCC]

In other words the movement toward your 3 year old may not have been threatening enough, but for psychological reasons for one I wouldn't test that.

Yes, try using somebody else's kid. There's a few in my neighborhood who need to get "experimented" on.

 

[Doc]

Sorry but it is not a learned reflex, anymore than you "learn" to blink your eyes. The reflexes develop as the body matures, and each sense develops at a different rate. As an example the first to develop is a "startle reflex" to sound long before the visual cortext has developed. The very young show little to no reaction to external visual stimuli that would activate startle reflex. Not because they haven't "learned," but simply because it has not developed.

 

[Simon Curran]

Pertaining to the current conversation about reflexes, this morning on my way into work I almost decked my self walking into a roller shuttter that was too far down (yeah I know, dumb thing to do...)

Even though I barely made contact with it, it was my own violent subconcious recoil which nearly put me on my butt not the impact itself, I have now decided to learn from my "blonde moments" and see what, if any of it, I can use in relation to my training.
Thanks for the inspiration guys (and gals)

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Even though I barely made contact with it, it was my own violent subconcious recoil which nearly put me on my butt not the impact itself, I have now decided to learn from my "blonde moments" and see what, if any of it, I can use in relation to my training.

Right on! and LOL Simon :rofl:

 

[DavidCC]

Pertaining to the current conversation about reflexes, this morning on my way into work I almost decked my self walking into a roller shuttter that was too far down (yeah I know, dumb thing to do...)

Even though I barely made contact with it, it was my own violent subconcious recoil which nearly put me on my butt not the impact itself, I have now decided to learn from my "blonde moments" and see what, if any of it, I can use in relation to my training.
Thanks for the inspiration guys (and gals)

Not being an AK student, I have not spent a lot of time with the material... but didn't Mr. Parker talk about this in Infinite Insights? I wish I could remember the term... I think he related it to when you think there is one more stair and almost fall for no reason...

 

[Doc]

Not being an AK student, I have not spent a lot of time with the material... but didn't Mr. Parker talk about this in Infinite Insights? I wish I could remember the term... I think he related it to when you think there is one more stair and almost fall for no reason...

That was me D.

 

[pete]

i've heard that analogy used to describe a tai chi principle of 'leading into emptiness'. another one is the old comic routine of a guy trying to knock down a door thats already been opened.

i don't remember if any of these were ever attributed to ed parker though...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Yep. There are many reflexes in the body that require growth and maturation prior to actualization. Neurons are still making the trip from central nervous system to extremities during the first few years of development.

For example, the righting reflex...firmware exists in the central nervous system; nerves connecting CNS to extremities, muscles, joints, etc., to carry the proprioceptive info to and from the brain and body aren't in place yet. Hence, even though the kids brain is sending out messages about correcting weight distribution for balance, we still see the little rugrats staggering around like drunks and plopping on their bottoms for no apparent reason, or for very small bumps in the carpet that wouldn't phase an older body.

Some are in place, but lacking maturity, reflect "incorrect" information. Babinksi's reflex positive in a baby is normal; in an adult, the reflex should extinguish and be replaced with more of a plantarflexion response. Babinski's positive in an adult indicates some long-tract or Upper Motor Neuron Lesion stuff...bad things influencing spinal cord, etc.

Grab a neuro book.

Regards,

D.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sorry but it is not a learned reflex, anymore than you "learn" to blink your eyes. The reflexes develop as the body matures, and each sense develops at a different rate. As an example the first to develop is a "startle reflex" to sound long before the visual cortext has developed. The very young show little to no reaction to external visual stimuli that would activate startle reflex. Not because they haven't "learned," but simply because it has not developed.

Neurology is extremely complicated but to cut to the chase Doc's right. Nature and nurture may be difficult to separate but not everything which develops later in life is learned. This is further complicated by the multiple factors which trigger and moderate reflexes.

Jeff

 

[dubljay]

This has been a facinating thread despite it's drift from the original topic. I am going to be wasting a lot of ink printing this stuff out (gotta have a paper copy for easier reference).


My question is how effective is using someone's reflexes against them? Is using their reflexes against them more of psychological tool with only limited physical usefulness? If the use of reflex fails then what, grab 'em and beat 'em?


This thinking stuff hurts....


-Josh

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This has been a facinating thread despite it's drift from the original topic. I am going to be wasting a lot of ink printing this stuff out (gotta have a paper copy for easier reference).


My question is how effective is using someone's reflexes against them? Is using their reflexes against them more of psychological tool with only limited physical usefulness? If the use of reflex fails then what, grab 'em and beat 'em?


This thinking stuff hurts....


-Josh

The kick I get outta SL4 self-defense techniques is how they remain EPAK kenpo techniques, re-tooled to incorporate many of these ideas. Techs you've seen before and practiced often get a change added to include things like initiating reflexes to place an attacker at a disadvantage so the rest of the technique works mo' bettah. Once you've drilled it for a spell with the changes in place, going back to how you did it without the inclusions feels like a return to the un-edumacated primal. It becomes part of the grab and beat, and not just a precursor or cherry on top.

Regards,

Dave