Egos as big as the doors

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually there is no punching in WTF sparring so "boxing"could not be used.
Still I dont see making drastic changes having any effect on someone's ego. I could reverse the situation and say that by making it harder to get a BB will indeed fuel someone's ego even more because they will feel far superior to anyone who is not a BB. By having more BB then people wont think it's so special.
There are some good recommendations, they are well thought out and I don't disagree with them, I just see the same problems with ego's remaining because ego's are really an individual trait.

Thank you for your kind words.

You're correct; the ego is an individual thing. But the drastic changes themselves would at least eliminate some of the major egos that don't have the level of skills to back it up. Also, it may send those seeking rank inflation elsewhere or prompt them to go off and start their own org if they want to be declared great grand poobah.

The one thing that the drastic changes would bring about is an atmosphere that is less inviting to inflated egos, partly through uninflated rank and partly by elimitating the kiddie blackbelts.

The Kiddie Blackbelt is absolutely the greatest contributor to inflated egos in taekwondo. Either through, "I got my blackbelt when I was five and now I'm sixth dan at 22" or through, "My school promotes more blackbelts than any other school in the region. Bring your kids to me" nonsense.

As for punches, yes, WTF does allow punches. Punches must be straight, close fisted punches to the torso only, but it does allow punches. Now, punches are rarely scored, they are allowed. That effectively eliminates the spinning backfist.

In lieu of calling it kickboxing, I'm sure that some other nifty name could be culled from Korea's martial past or thought up by sports-term savvy marketers.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

IMO armchair MMA'ers have bigger egos.

Armchair anything is always a problem. Keep in mind that the same guys who are armchair MMA'ers were armchair kickboxers when that was big and armchair karateka when that was big. Then there's ninja larping.
Edit: I've met armchair boxers in years past as well.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Armchair anything is always a problem. Keep in mind that the same guys who are armchair MMA'ers were armchair kickboxers when that was big and armchair karateka when that was big. Then there's ninja larping.

Daniel

at least here... the armchair MMA'ers were the same ones making fun of me for taking TKD 5 or 6 years ago.

They had no idea what martial arts was other than TV.

 

[tellner]

IMO armchair MMA'ers have bigger egos.

But actual MMAers tend not to.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Brandon, I do see some good and valid reasons for the existence of an organization. To maintain and establish curriculum standards and to provide standards of certification is perfectly legitimate.

Now, here's a thought that would springboard from my comment about limiting dan ranks to fifth or sixth and would allow for the Olympic sport crowd to continue as they are:

Given how minimal the KKW curriculum is and that there isn't any new curriculum past fourth dan if I am not mistaken, I think that a major portion of the rank inflation and ego boosting could be done away with if they simply didn't have any rank higher than sixth dan. Anything above that could be posthumous. I disagree with awarding rank for promoting the art or doing wonderful things for the art. Awards and recognition should be given for such things, but not rank. Rank should be based on skill, time in grade, and above third, the ability to teach.

Here's how I see it: fourth dan is needed to sign dan certs. So unless one specifically wants to teach and/or run a school, there is little need for a fourth. Fifth dan would be required fo promote to fourth, so make fifth dan applicants go to Korea, take the instructors course, and take a full test on the Kukkiwon curriculum. It isn't as if there's that much, so the test should have very high standards. In fact, it should be as tough as the hachidan test in kendo (only 2% pass that out of between one and two thousand applicants per year).

Make the grandmaster of the Kukkiwon sixth dan, with all administrators who make policy on taekwondo being fifth. And also, only the grandmaster of the kukkiwon gets to be call grandmaster.

The physical blackbelts and poom beltsmust come directly from the Kukkiwon. Yudanja receive a black belt, gold stitching and all, along with a white KKW dobok with black collar. KKW schools cannot hand them out, and if the practitioner is under fifteen, the KKW sends them a black/red poom belt and poom dobok. That will eliminate the kiddie blackbelts. Require the child to take a comprehensive test at fifteen of the material for each and every poom rank that they wish to convert to a dan. The material is pretty much all forms anyway, so it isn't like a second or third poom student is being asked to that much. But mainly, make it an adult level test for a dan rank. Break the same number and size of board, spar adult opponents, etc. Then the KKW dans will be of much higher average quality.

Lastly, make self defense and hand techniques a more prominent part of the curriculum and creat a Kukkiwon style of sparring that allows for more hand techniques, sweeps and takedowns.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now for the olympic/sport aspect:

Take away USAT's ability to send in dan apps. Competitions should not be rank related at all. It should be gender, weight class, and record. Period. Install a competition rating like fencing, U, then E through A ratings. U is unrated, which if you've never competed is what you are. E-A is based on both your win/loss ration and the number of bouts you've fought and whom you've fought. A perfect record with only ten bouts against E rated fencers is not an A rating. Ratings are not permanent, but go up and down depending on how the athlete is performing, how many bouts they fight in a year, and the ratings of who they fight.

The WTF could easily install such a system and then USAT would have ZERO influence over belt rankings in the Kukkiwon.

The Kukkiwon should make a provision for a school to register as a sport only school to accomodate such schools. They should allow no rankings to sport only schools aside from that of athlete. Sport only schools should be required to wear a belt comprised of their nation's colors with their nation's flag on one end and the WTF logo at the other with ATHLETE above the flag and the logo at each end.

Lastly, call it either Taekwondo Kickboxing or Korean Kickboxing. But call it kickboxing because really, that is what WTF style is.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Doing these changes will maintain the integrity of the kyu/dan system and provide an outlet for the existing athletic structure. Existing dans over sixth could keep their ranks, but no new ranks over 6th can be given out. When the current holders of 7th+ dan holders die off, the problem of inflated dans goes away and those guys get to be posthumous high dan legends.

Thoughts?

Daniel

Daniel,

Not sure if I'm following what you're saying here 100%...

Are you talking about having TKD governed under 1 organization, and for that organization to be the KKW?

I'm not sure if I'm misinterperating what you posted..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,

Not sure if I'm following what you're saying here 100%...

Are you talking about having TKD governed under 1 organization, and for that organization to be the KKW?

I'm not sure if I'm misinterperating what you posted..

I'm refering to the Kukkiwon and the WTF. I kind of ran my response to you regarding organizations in general with the rest which regarded the Kukkiwon/WTF in particular.

I have stuck with addressing the Kukkiwon specifically because they are the most visible taekwondo organization and the WTF specifically because they are the most visible taekwondo sport organization worldwide. Also because Terry is at least affiliated with the Kukkiwon, though I'm pretty sure that unless you watched them do taegeuks, his classes would look very different from a typical KKW school's classes (different good)

I am not familiar enough with the ITF to even comment on them. I understand that there are like three different ones, so I figure that ITF practitioners can weigh in with ORG specifics if they wish.

The ATA could very easily do everything that I mentioned. Just substitute KKW/WTF with ATA and ignore the olympic/WTF sparring comments.

Sorry for the confusion.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Also, regarding the Kukkiwon and orgs in general, I am of the opinion that as the Kukkiwon goes, so goes taekwondo.

Either directly or indirectly, the Kukkiwon sets the standard. Either they set the standard for those within the organization (which is a ton of people), or their standard is the point of referrence.

The ATA took the Kukkiwon and WTF, combined them into one and used that as the basis for their structure.

Other orgs looked at the Kukkiwon and said, 'that's too weak. No SD. That sparring has no hand techniques. We're doing this...."

And you can't tell me that the ITF (any of them) doesn't watch the Kukkiwon very closely. The Kukkiwon is, after all successful. Any org would be very foolish to ignore their biggest competition, and the Kukkiwon is everyone's biggest competition in taekwondo.

Also, because the Kukkiwon can actually claim to be the merging of the original Kwans, it can actually make a case for being the true lineage of taekwondo (no, I'm not saying that I think it is; only that they can make a case for it).

Lastly, any black eye incurred by the Kukkiwon and the WTF, be it self inflicted or not, affects everyone with the word, "Taekwondo" on their door, regardless of organization.

Daniel

 

[wade]

not happy with your post.............

 

[terryl965]

not happy with your post.............

With who's post Wade?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

not happy with your post.............

Wade, who are you responding to? Since it is right after mine, I'll assume that you're referring to mine, but if not, you should identify the post to which you refer.

So you're not happy with a post.

Articulate.

If you disagree with me (or anyone else for that matter), that's fine. Why? Discussions don't really go anywhere if everyone just spouts the same thing.

But you just being "not happy with" it? I honestly don't care. I see tons of post that don't make me happy. Unless I have something that actually contributes to the discussion to say in response, I don't say anything. Nobody on the internet owes me happiness.

I don't owe the rest of martial talk happiness. If I post, however, I do owe the rest of MT articulated posts that make sense. If others don't agree with them, that is fine. Opposing viewpoints can make for some excellent discussion.

So what is your viewpoint on the subject?

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Ok...in regards to the org thing....

I don't honestly know how the ITF runs things. On my profile, (I really wish I had an idea of how to make it not confusing), I'm listed as being ITF TKD...but the only problem is that I'm not affiliated with the ITF. I'm practicing what I understand to be the ITF style of TKD....we use the Chang H'on patterns, and the cirriculum was based off of ITF.

But the catch is that the cirriculum was based off the ITF in 1978.

The easiest way to explain all of my history is to give the lineage of where my TKD comes from..

My instructor was taught by Young Tso, who was taught by General Choi. I don't know the dates of when Mister Tso was learning from General Choi, and I'm also not sure when my instructor started learning from Mister Tso...but I do know that he opened the dojang that I belong to in 1978.

So, at that time, from what I understand, Mister Tso, when learning from Gen Choi, earned his blackbelt in the ITF. I don't believe that he ever affiliated his dojang with the ITF organization, and I know our instructor didn't.

So that's where I stand. That's why it throws me off that the ITF Chang H'on patterns show Kwang Ge that I'm doing now as a recommended 2nd dan is now the 1st dan pattern.

Phew....ok...so all that was to let you know where I stand in the grand scheme of things...

I don't agree with an organization being in charge of a martial art. TKD is a young art anyway...so why does it need to be governed? Shouldn't TKD be one of those arts that even though it has several different "branches", it would still have the same standards from its conception? I guess I just don't understand why things change the way they do within TKD as far as requirements, forms, etc...and I understand how an organization would need to step in and govern that, but...I like going back to the old catch phrase:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm sorry, but none of the organizations have shown me anything except corruption through the ranks. So why would I want to be affiliated with that? Especially when the TKD our instructor teaches is 3rd generation Gen. Choi? Seems like that's pretty pure to me...

I'm fine not being affiliated with an organization. If someone doesn't want to recognize me as being a legit blackbelt in TKD...fine. I'll go as a white belt. It does not hurt my feelings one bit.

I guess I'm saying that I don't need anyone else's justification for the rank that I earned through my instructor. He's the one who tied the belt around my waist, and he's the one who judges how far I've progressed....and to me, that's all the KKW or ITF or ATA or WTF or QQZ or BBQ or any of them exist for...it's all just an ego boost for justification of rank.

The only thing I can see an organization being good for is to make sure that the art is the same across the board...rank, requirements, etc. But that's the issue I have: Why has TKD changed its cirriculum from what I'm learning, when there's nothing wrong with what I'm learning? There hasn't been anything added into the cirriculum that would make me more or less effective than what is already included in the cirriculum I'm learning.

Like I said...if it ain't broke....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I guess I'm saying that I don't need anyone else's justification for the rank that I earned through my instructor. He's the one who tied the belt around my waist, and he's the one who judges how far I've progressed....and to me, that's all the KKW or ITF or ATA or WTF or QQZ or BBQ or any of them exist for...it's all just an ego boost for justification of rank.

The only thing I can see an organization being good for is to make sure that the art is the same across the board...rank, requirements, etc. But that's the issue I have: Why has TKD changed its cirriculum from what I'm learning, when there's nothing wrong with what I'm learning? There hasn't been anything added into the cirriculum that would make me more or less effective than what is already included in the cirriculum I'm learning.

I agree with most of what you say regarding orgs in general. I also agree that it is not necesary to have organizational affiliation.

I do feel that in concept, the Kukkiwon is fantastic. The idea of a central 'keeper of the flame' so to speak is very good. Unfortunately, the Kukkiwon has been complicit to some degree with kiddie black belts, although the ATA took it to a whole new level. I strongly feel that the Kukkiwon should furnish the belt and dobok to yudanja and poom holders, whatever you call them. That would side step the whole kiddie belt issue altogether.

For us on the other end of the Pacific, the Kukkiwon really only impacts us as..

1. the place where certifications come from and...

2. the progenitor of the basic curriculum that one is supposed to learn in order to receive that certification.

3. being the one's who's blackbelt is required for a certain level of competing under USAT and....

4. the place that USAT certs actually come from.

5. It also is important to western customers that a teacher be credentialed by an "official" organization.

Honesty, the only real complaint that I have with the Kukkiwon in terms of practical issues is that they don't have a sparring system for use in the dojang for the purpose of training people to fight using the art of taekwondo. WTF sparring does not resemble any of the poomsae nor does it resemble the bulk of taekwondo's curriculum.

The WTF really should be spun off and the Kukkiwon should develope a sparring style that actually resembles the martial art of taekwondo. Then KKW schools would produce more champions and a more prepared student overall. Such rules might also steer away the kiddie belt crowd, which is the absolute curse of taekwondo (to use Twin Fist's words)

Daniel