Drawing and firing, "Israeli-style"

[MBuzzy]

Oh yeah...by "specific purpose" I mean line of duty.

With all due respect, if you are legally drawing your weapon in any capacity, that is EXACTLY what HAS happened.

If you are not justified in shooting to stop a deadly force threat, you are not justified in drawing/shooting AT ALL.

I'm not aware of police officer regulations, but military wise, there are procedural situations where the weapon is ready to fire whether the threat is present or not. Clearning rooms, convoy situations, show of force, etc. As limited as they are....I've had a weapon out, with no immediate intention to fire and no immediate threat - thought definate cause to have it out (guarding undesirables, etc)

 

[jks9199]

Oh yeah...by "specific purpose" I mean line of duty.



I'm not aware of police officer regulations, but military wise, there are procedural situations where the weapon is ready to fire whether the threat is present or not. Clearning rooms, convoy situations, show of force, etc. As limited as they are....I've had a weapon out, with no immediate intention to fire and no immediate threat - thought definate cause to have it out (guarding undesirables, etc)

What's happening in cases where a police officer (or the military, for that matter) has a gun out without an immediately APPARENT threat is simple; it seems highly likely that such a threat may present itself suddenly and with little warning. Each agency has its own specific policies and SOPs, but generally speaking a police officer is permitted to have his gun out anytime he reasonably anticipates needing it. Typical situations include room or building clearing, dealing with a suspect that they believe may be armed, some traffic stops, and more. Sometimes we'll draw and be a little sneaky about it (low hold, down by the leg or otherwise out of immediate sight), other times you're staring down the barrel of the gun until we know what's going on. It's real simple; action is always faster than reaction. Having my gun out means I'm much more likely to successfully get it into play when I need it than if it's in the holster...

A few of the times you mention are times that cops don't have a gun out, as a general rule. We don't make a "show of force." If I draw, I anticipate that there is a good chance I will need to use lethal force in the immediate future. The fact that I've drawn may deter and de-escalate the situation -- but I anticipate that I'll be shooting. And we seldom would draw during some sort of convoy/escort, or on routine patrol, unlike a military unit.

I also want to address another comment you made earlier in the thread; cops off duty are in a really complex situation. We may or may not have full authority depending on state law. For example, in VA, officially I am a mere citizen off duty, outside my jurisdiction, but within my jurisdiction I have full authority and, per GOs, I am "subject to duty" and could actually face discipline for failing to act -- but I have colleagues in other states or federal agents who have full authority anywhere they go, at anytime. But, at the same time, I don't stop being a "cop", and depending on the situation, wouldn't hesitate to take police action. (There are plenty of threads about when to take action and how to make that decision; here's one.) Additionally, some of the folks we deal with just aren't happy about the outcome. So, many of us carry our guns off duty; some of us are, in fact, required to do so.

 

[Archangel M]

The best safety there is is keeping your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.

 

[Deaf Smith]

JKS,

I carry a Glock (Glock 27). I compete in IDPA with a Glock (Glock 17). I have several Glocks (26, 27, 19, 32, and 17!)

Yes I have other handguns, and my other carry gun is a Smith 642, and there are new kids on the block like the Smith M&P that give Glocks a run for their money now days, but... In Collin County, Texas, they have the annual Glock .vs. 1911 match (I've been in it.) 1000 rounds over one day. No cleaning allowed. Any jams call a halt to the shooting and the it's documentated.

Virtually all Glock 17s and 19s pass the 1000 round test without any jams of any kind. Most Glock 20s, in .45, have 2 jams for the 1000 rounds. Only ONE 1911, a Springfield Armory 9mm, and ONE STI .45, have gone the 1000 rounds without a jam.

I'm pretty sure a P-35 would do it (I used it in IPSC for many years making class 'A' with it.) But I don't know of many handguns that would!

MBuzzy,

Don't sweat it. I do know military regs. The regs are to protect the carrier officers in case someone is injured. They don't care about the gunts.

Even in Iraq, inside the green zone supposedly no mags allowed in their weapons (that never happend in the war with Germany or Japan in all but the most rear units!) And one time they did take up the magazines, at an air base, and sure enough, some Japanese attacked the base and killed an awful lot of people who had guns but no ammo.

Deaf

 

[kwaichang]

I wouldn't put most peoples skills against any Israeli agent's skill with a hand gun. But that's my experience talking.:uhyeah:
Just remember that "sight picture and trigger control" means the ability to hit your target.:flame:

If you carry, you should be prepared to use the weapon. Fully loaded, round in the chamber and saftey on is fine for cwp personnel.

It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

[SeanKerby]

When going from home to range, Condition 4. No magazine in wpn, no round in chamber, wpn on safe.


When actually carrying, Condition 1. Round in chamber, magazine inserted, wpn on safe.

That's just me.

 

[MBuzzy]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

 

[Grenadier]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

For concealed carry permit holders, there is no real hard and fast way to carry the weapon. It just comes down to whatever the person wants to do.

There are several options available, for several types of pistols.

Single action semiautomatic pistol (1911, Browning Hi Power) users have several choices:

Chamber empty, hammer down (like the Israeli style method).
Chamber loaded, hammer down, safety can be on or off.
Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on (cocked and locked).

For double action semiautos, including double action / single action types:

Chamber empty, hammer down (as above).
Chamber loaded, hammer down, safety, if any, can be on or off.


In general, people don't carry their weapons with the chamber loaded, and the hammer cocked in a double action weapon, since most current double action weapons, when the safety is engaged, it also acts as a decocking device.


Personally? For my double action weapons (including my Glocks), it's chamber loaded. They're always carried in stiff leather holsters that have the trigger guard completely covered.

If I were to carry a single action semiauto, then I would use the "cocked and locked" method, or the loaded chamber / hammer down method.

 

[jks9199]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

It depends.

In VA, the only rules I'm aware amount to "don't be reckless and don't let kids get ahold of it." There's nothing in the laws about what sort of holster or where it must be carried on the body. There are locations where you cannot carry a concealed gun, like private property that's posted "no guns" or bars.

For a LEO, it comes down to agency policies. I know of some agencies where you are required to carry your duty gun (or another gun issued by the department), others that specify what you may carry off duty, and there are still a few that let you carry anything you can qualify with... Most require some sort of retention holster, though a thumb snap is generally enough.

 

[KenpoTex]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

I highly doubt that there is any LE agency/department in the USA that mandates carry with an empty-chamber (and I'd be very interested to hear of any). I'm almost positive that there is no state that requires this for CCW holders.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I personally think that carrying a defensive weapon in "Condition-3" is absolutely stupid (the exception would be shotguns carried "cruiser ready" when in the car).

Being safe means using a good quality holster and keeping your booger-hook of the bang-switch until it's time to shoot.

HEAR, HEAR! The power of the BOOGER-FINGER!

 

[sgtmac_46]

So, because I'm a civilian, I shouldn't have my weapon in a condition that permits immediate use should the need arise? This means that if I'm forced to use my weapon, I'm going to have to draw the gun, draw the mag, insert the mag into the pistol, rack the slide, and ONLY then will I be able to shoot the S.O.B. that is attacking me...this makes no sense at all.

When carrying for defensive purposes, I see nothing "safe" about a weapon that is not ready to use. I'll even go so far as to say that if you are carrying your weapon with an empty chamber or without a magazine inserted, it is indicitive of either a lack of training, poor mindset, or both.

You're a civilian? Darn, I had you pegged as 'on the job'. I can usually spot another copper, even on the internet.

 

[sgtmac_46]

JKS,

I carry a Glock (Glock 27). I compete in IDPA with a Glock (Glock 17). I have several Glocks (26, 27, 19, 32, and 17!)

Yes I have other handguns, and my other carry gun is a Smith 642, and there are new kids on the block like the Smith M&P that give Glocks a run for their money now days, but... In Collin County, Texas, they have the annual Glock .vs. 1911 match (I've been in it.) 1000 rounds over one day. No cleaning allowed. Any jams call a halt to the shooting and the it's documentated.

Virtually all Glock 17s and 19s pass the 1000 round test without any jams of any kind. Most Glock 20s, in .45, have 2 jams for the 1000 rounds. Only ONE 1911, a Springfield Armory 9mm, and ONE STI .45, have gone the 1000 rounds without a jam.

I'm pretty sure a P-35 would do it (I used it in IPSC for many years making class 'A' with it.) But I don't know of many handguns that would!

MBuzzy,

Don't sweat it. I do know military regs. The regs are to protect the carrier officers in case someone is injured. They don't care about the gunts.

Even in Iraq, inside the green zone supposedly no mags allowed in their weapons (that never happend in the war with Germany or Japan in all but the most rear units!) And one time they did take up the magazines, at an air base, and sure enough, some Japanese attacked the base and killed an awful lot of people who had guns but no ammo.

Deaf

While owning several GLOCKS myself, and having carried one for 12 years of police duty, i've transitioned to carrying a 1911 because I prefer the trigger operation that enhances accuracy. You are correct, however, in that GLOCKS are inherently more reliable than just about any other handgun out of the box. But since i'm willing to spend the time and effort in keeping my custom 1911 clean, correctly oiled, and the proper springs changed at the proper time, it's an acceptable trade off.

I wouldn't recommend a 1911 to anyone who merely wished a reliable reasonably accurate 'buy and forget until I need it' gun....a GLOCK has that market cornered in spades....it requires virtually ZERO maintainance and fires the first time every time.

Jeff Cooper grudgingly said it best.

"The Glock is okay. It is generally reliable, it is comparatively inexpensive, and it is available in respectable calibers. Above all, its aftermarket service is superior. The great part of its sales comes from police departments, where maintenance and quick service are of primary importance. It may not be the best choice for the expert pistolero, but such people are not in the majority." -Col. Jeff Cooper

"It is true that I am no champion of the Glock pistol, but I think it unseemly to pick on this device when it is obviously satisfactory in most uses." -Col. Jeff Cooper

About has a high a praise for any modern semi-auto pistol as you're likely to get from Col. Cooper....who detested the typical long and heavy first shot triggers seen on Sigs, Berettas, Smiths and others, referring to them as 'Crunch Tickers'. I never felt poorly armed with a GLOCK.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You're a civilian? Darn, I had you pegged as 'on the job'. I can usually spot another copper, even on the internet.

He's a civilian * at THIS time*. not sure about before?

 

[Grenadier]

Jeff Cooper grudgingly said it best.

About has a high a praise for any modern semi-auto pistol as you're likely to get from Col. Cooper....who detested the typical long and heavy first shot triggers seen on Sigs, Berettas, Smiths and others, referring to them as 'Crunch Tickers'. I never felt poorly armed with a GLOCK.

On a side note, one of the gun grabber organizations tried to get Jeff Cooper to say negative things about Glocks, trying to milk out anything that could be interpreted as a safety hazard.

He told them to go stick it where the sun doesn't shine, and that Glocks worked just fine for the job.

 

[KenpoTex]

You're a civilian? Darn, I had you pegged as 'on the job'. I can usually spot another copper, even on the internet.

He's a civilian * at THIS time*. not sure about before?

CJ degree and various private-security jobs (currently armed EP stuff), never had a commission though.


Sarge and Gren, thanks for the Col. Cooper trivia...interesting.

 

[kwaichang]

It depends.

In VA, the only rules I'm aware amount to "don't be reckless and don't let kids get ahold of it." There's nothing in the laws about what sort of holster or where it must be carried on the body. There are locations where you cannot carry a concealed gun, like private property that's posted "no guns" or bars.
.

Yep, in fact if you'd carry in plain site, there isn't a need for a permit at least in my area of Va. and I believe that cities have the right to modify that caveat.
CCP doesn't specify how to carry. I'm a 9mm carry (basically) and have seven in the clip, one in the chamber, safety on. I feel comfortable.
There have been too many shootings in parking lots of major malls down here, so I never go without carrying. Now some malls say "no guns" on their doors; I deal with it on a situation by situation deal.
Oh, and my concealed holster does *not* have any type of strap to secure the weapon, thus no delay in my draw.

 

[tellner]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

It really depends on the State (for CCW holders) and the Department (for law enforcement).

The general rule is "don't let it show" if you're in an area where CCW is legal but open carry is not. And even when open carry is within the rules it tends to get the unfriendly attention of bystanders and the police, so it's best to be discreet.

What's more annoying is the list of places where firearms may not be carried. Most places that includes bars and public schools. Some States add churches or government buildings. Others forbid it on public transportation. Sometimes State law conflicts with city ordinance even where other law preempts cities from being more restrictive.

 

[Deaf Smith]

About has a high a praise for any modern semi-auto pistol as you're likely to get from Col. Cooper....who detested the typical long and heavy first shot triggers seen on Sigs, Berettas, Smiths and others, referring to them as 'Crunch Tickers'. I never felt poorly armed with a GLOCK.

While I have two SIGs, 225 and 239, I to don't care for DA/SA transitions. Hence the Glock with just one type of trigger pull. Now I have, oh, 5 1911s, Kimber, Springfield Armory, and Colt. One in 9mm and one in .22. The rest are .45s. But until I make master level IDPA in stock service class, I'll keep using the Glock. Once I hit master (I'm expert in all categories), I'll then transfer to 1911s till I make master in enhanced and custom defense (both 1911 categoies, one 9mm/40, the other .45.) After that I go to wheelguns for the last category, stock service revolver.

You see, I feel one should compete with one carries least one goofs up the festivities cause the manual of arms are different.

Oh, the 1911s I have are very good. Very expensive to. But it's a Glock I compete with, so it's a Glock I carry.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

For LEOs and those with Concealed Carry Permits, I'm curious, are there any rules for how the weapon should be carried?

In Georgia you cannot carry the weapon in any position but along the hip. No ankle rigs, no forarm holsters, no inside thigh rigs, etc... I think sholder holsters are ok, but not anywere else.

Each state is different. Oklahoma you can't carry a .50 cal. Yes, .45 is ok but nothing above it (no .50 GI for me!) Some states, like NY, require the serial numbers of the guns to be on the permit (max of 4 guns for NY.) Texas has no such requrement.

Oh, there are tons of laws on where and where not you can carry. What states recognize your permit (or like Alaska and Vermont, you don't need no stinken permit!)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

http://www.kc3.com/index.html

and others. Huge amont of info.

Deaf