Drawing and firing, "Israeli-style"

[Grenadier]

I used to prefer carrying my pistols "Israeli-style," which basically means that you have a loaded magazine in your pistol, but don't keep a round chambered. When you need to, you draw, rack, and fire in one series of movements.

Here's a pretty good video of a guy showing how fast the "Israeli-style" method can be.

I don't carry that way anymore, though, since 1) I'm not nearly as accomplished as the guy in that video, and 2) I simply prefer keeping the gun in its holster, with a round in the chamber, since my holster covers the trigger guard completely.

Still, I find this guy's speed and accuracy to be quite impressive, especially since he's doing this with the garmets that he's using.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I understand the Israeli's use this method because long time ago they had rather large numbers of types of simi-autos they have in stock. From P-35s to 1911s to Sigs, Smiths, Jerochos, Stars, and what ever they can get ahold of.

The advantage is mainly of safety. A chamber empty pistol is harder to have an AD/ND with, at least if you are just toying around with it. Also if the gun is snatched, it makes it harder for the attacker to manipulate it. It will give you a second or more time to presuade him to give you your gun back.

But there are major disadvantages.

1) Two handed slide manipulation with wet or sweaty hands is problematic. This is especially true if the slide has very narrow or slick serritations. It is also prone to double feeding and short stroking the weapon.

2) Having two hands to do this slide manipulation leaves you at a real disadvantage if you don't have two hands to do this! This can be in a retention situation where you are struggleing with the attacker and, well, it's kind of difficult to ignore the attacker!

3) It leaves you prone to being jumped as the attacker knows you will have to add extra operations to fire the weapon. Hip shooting or retention shooting will be out of the question for you.

4 If you don't have two hands, racking the slide on your pants, or leg, or side of car, is also problematic (and by problematic we mean it can be screwed up real easy in a tense situation.) This is especially true of your carry gun is 'slick', I.E., melted corners and such to keep it from snagging on anything (and if it's snag proof, then it's real hard to make the slide hang on anything to get it to rack.)

5) It adds another step to the process to use the weapon. One needs to keep in mind the KISS principle. Don't make emergency equipment more complex to use, make it simpler. That's one of the reasons the simi-auto is more popular than the revolver (at least reliable ones!)

So, you see, the Israeli method, while a good administrative method for newbie shooters on a range, is not something one wants for a CCW method.

Deaf

 

[tkd1964]

I used this method when I carried my Glock. It worked quite well even with sweaty hands. Not always but at times. As long as you are observent and practice holstering and drawing you shouldn't need to use this method. I never use a holster that has a thumb strap either. If the holster doesn't restrain the pistol, get a new holster.:highfive:

 

[tellner]

I dunno. It's just not working with my revolver or flintlock

 

[MBuzzy]

Air Force and Army have vastly different standards for carrying weapons, but the Air Force method is to keep a loaded mag, a round chambered, and the weapon on safety. That means you draw, flip the safety and fire. Needless to say, we're less concerned about safety and more about having the round available when needed.

I'm honestly not sure what the Army method is, but I believe that it is the same as the "israeli method."

 

[MA-Caver]

I used this method when I carried my Glock. It worked quite well even with sweaty hands. Not always but at times. As long as you are observent and practice holstering and drawing you shouldn't need to use this method. I never use a holster that has a thumb strap either. If the holster doesn't restrain the pistol, get a new holster.:highfive:

Well, as the man in the video said... practice makes perfect. That's the key with ANYTHING we do.

 

[KenpoTex]

I personally think that carrying a defensive weapon in "Condition-3" is absolutely stupid (the exception would be shotguns carried "cruiser ready" when in the car).

Being safe means using a good quality holster and keeping your booger-hook of the bang-switch until it's time to shoot.

 

[MBuzzy]

I personally think that carrying a defensive weapon in "Condition-3" is absolutely stupid (the exception would be shotguns carried "cruiser ready" when in the car).

Being safe means using a good quality holster and keeping your booger-hook of the bang-switch until it's time to shoot.

Normally I'd fully agree, but I think that it depends on the situation. A civilian carrying a gun, definately...in fact, in most cases, I would say that it is best to even carry with no mag. A cop, at least loaded mag. Federal Agent or other, no problem with a round chambered. Military, NO DOUBT round chambered.

It completely depends on your job and situation and WHY you are carrying the gun. There are professions out there that if the gun comes out of the holster, someone's getting shot.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Normally I'd fully agree, but I think that it depends on the situation. A civilian carrying a gun, definately...in fact, in most cases, I would say that it is best to even carry with no mag. A cop, at least loaded mag. Federal Agent or other, no problem with a round chambered. Military, NO DOUBT round chambered.

It completely depends on your job and situation and WHY you are carrying the gun. There are professions out there that if the gun comes out of the holster, someone's getting shot.

No mag? Who would carry it with no magazine in it? I'd carry a rock before I'd do that! I know of no class of carrier, CCW or police or military, that needs a weapon with no magazine. I can see some military guards with no round in chamber (but definatly not in a war zone), but all others chamber loaded.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

I personally think that carrying a defensive weapon in "Condition-3" is absolutely stupid (the exception would be shotguns carried "cruiser ready" when in the car).

Being safe means using a good quality holster and keeping your booger-hook of the bang-switch until it's time to shoot.

Absolutly Ken!

Deaf

 

[MBuzzy]

No mag? Who would carry it with no magazine in it? I'd carry a rock before I'd do that! I know of no class of carrier, CCW or police or military, that needs a weapon with no magazine. I can see some military guards with no round in chamber (but definatly not in a war zone), but all others chamber loaded.

Deaf

Official carrier, I agree. They should always have a mag.

I'm used to the Air Force rules, where we are required by regulation to have a round chambered. So, if carrying with a loaded mag is standard, why is the "israeli style" different?

I can definately see situations where no mag is needed. When I go practice shooting at the indoor range, I never carry with a mag. The average civilian with a concealed carry permit, I see no need to have a mag in. Mainly for safety...if it isn't there, it takes that extra step and requires more thought. A civilian in that situation should be shooting as a LAST resort, not like a cop or military, where the weapon comes out for many reasons and needs to be ready to fire.

 

[jks9199]

Normally I'd fully agree, but I think that it depends on the situation. A civilian carrying a gun, definately...in fact, in most cases, I would say that it is best to even carry with no mag. A cop, at least loaded mag. Federal Agent or other, no problem with a round chambered. Military, NO DOUBT round chambered.

It completely depends on your job and situation and WHY you are carrying the gun. There are professions out there that if the gun comes out of the holster, someone's getting shot.

If you're carrying a gun to defend yourself -- it should be ready to do so. Fine motor control nosedives under the stress of a fight for your life. The last thing I want to be doing is fussing with the magazine or even the slide when someone's shooting at me.

If you're simply transporting a gun somewhere, it should be unloaded and secured properly.

"Cruiser safe" is a compromise for the shotgun; it's not under perfect control when it's locked up in a cruiser, and stupid mistakes have happened when cops have had to remove it from the car. Or when something like a crash sent stuff careening around the car... So, you keep the magazine tube loaded, but the chamber empty. It's kind of like the old practice of keeping a revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer.

 

[KenpoTex]

Official carrier, I agree. They should always have a mag.

I'm used to the Air Force rules, where we are required by regulation to have a round chambered. So, if carrying with a loaded mag is standard, why is the "israeli style" different?

I can definately see situations where no mag is needed. When I go practice shooting at the indoor range, I never carry with a mag. The average civilian with a concealed carry permit, I see no need to have a mag in. Mainly for safety...if it isn't there, it takes that extra step and requires more thought. A civilian in that situation should be shooting as a LAST resort, not like a cop or military, where the weapon comes out for many reasons and needs to be ready to fire.

So, because I'm a civilian, I shouldn't have my weapon in a condition that permits immediate use should the need arise? This means that if I'm forced to use my weapon, I'm going to have to draw the gun, draw the mag, insert the mag into the pistol, rack the slide, and ONLY then will I be able to shoot the S.O.B. that is attacking me...this makes no sense at all.

When carrying for defensive purposes, I see nothing "safe" about a weapon that is not ready to use. I'll even go so far as to say that if you are carrying your weapon with an empty chamber or without a magazine inserted, it is indicitive of either a lack of training, poor mindset, or both.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I can understand some ranges are 'cold' ranges. No loaded guns (the indoor range I go to, which I have a life membership, gives me no such restriction and lets me draw and do all kinds of stunts most are not allowed to, but then they know me real real well.)

Shotguns almost always have very poor safeties. The safeties block only the trigger, not the sear, nor hammer, nor firing pin, and thus any jar such as dropping the weapon always carries some danger. And that's why 'cruiser ready' is a good way to carry the shotgun.

As for defensive firearms, always fully loaded unless their mechanisms make it unsafe to do so (like older submachineguns that cannot be carried uncocked with a loaded magazine in place, or SSA revolvers like the Colt SSA which if the hammer is lowered if the chamber under the hammer is live and it's dropped on the hammer.)

Deaf

 

[MBuzzy]

So, because I'm a civilian, I shouldn't have my weapon in a condition that permits immediate use should the need arise? This means that if I'm forced to use my weapon, I'm going to have to draw the gun, draw the mag, insert the mag into the pistol, rack the slide, and ONLY then will I be able to shoot the S.O.B. that is attacking me...this makes no sense at all.

When carrying for defensive purposes, I see nothing "safe" about a weapon that is not ready to use. I'll even go so far as to say that if you are carrying your weapon with an empty chamber or without a magazine inserted, it is indicitive of either a lack of training, poor mindset, or both.

Luckily, according to the law, you can carry your weapon however you want with the right permit. My personal opinion is that I wouldn't carry with a mag in. But I also wouldn't carry a weapon without a very specific purpose. I have never been in a situation where I've said to myself "gee, I wish I had a gun right now." So that does color my statements a bit.

I really think of how you carry your weapon as simply more steps between you and killing someone. Round chambered, safety on I see for situations when if the gun comes out, someone's dying and needs to die now. Loaded mag in the weapon no round, I would think of in a situation where the gun can be used "procedurally" or in situation control. No mag, it a situation where the gun comes out as a last resort and very seldom. Basically, each condition requires one additional step before someone dies. To me, the more distinct steps possible, the better. It simply requires more thought and deliberate action. But it is still all a matter of preference. I wouldn't advocate for any change in SOP or in laws or rules. Just my opinion. The only times I've ever have been in target practice and Iraq....basically two different ends of the spectrum.

by the way, please take no offence, I don't use the term civilian in a derogatory sense. In my opinion, officers not on duty, military not on duty, federal agents not on duty, etc are all civilians also. Basically I just use it as someone who doesn't carry in an official capacity.

 

[tellner]

With respect Buzzy that's really bad advice. Other people have already pointed out that it makes the gun worthless for protection except as a not terribly effective club. There might be half a dozen people on the planet who could draw the weapon from a minimally engineered retention holster, draw a magazine, insert the magazine, rack, acquire a target and fire at realistic self defense distances. If you're hinting that a civilian doesn't need to actually fire the pistol, just wave it around and intimidate the bad guys I would suggest that you have taken leave of your otherwise well-developed senses.

So what problem are you trying to solve? You talk about NDs and having time to think about the situation, to carefully consider what's really going on. It's more of a problem for law enforcement than the rest of us. Police are often called to situations where they don't know who is who or what happened. The real threat may not be apparent, and they have to do insane things like get close to angry violent people and grapple them into submission. That's why shooting the wrong person is more common among LEOs than the general population according to the standard NIJ studies.

When someone who doesn't carry tin and doesn't have a paycheck signed by the DoD is in a deadly force self defense situation it's usually pretty clear to the defender who is trying to do what to whom. Responding in a timely manner is more of a problem. You get to carry your weapon in an exposed holster that's designed for quick access. We have to keep ours concealed which makes them even slower to deploy.

Israeli style can be fast enough with practice. Condition 1 makes sense if you really think you can trust your safety. But honestly, as long as the holster keeps the finger off the little lever even Condition 0 will do. People have carried revolvers for years with no safety and a full cylinder. They weren't any less safe with them than guys who carry self-loaders. But an empty chamber and no magazine? I'd rather have an umbrella. At least I can poke someone with it. And that's a higher percentage move than fumbling to load while the goblins are beating my head off the concrete.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I really think of how you carry your weapon as simply more steps between you and killing someone. Round chambered, safety on I see for situations when if the gun comes out, someone's dying and needs to die now..

With all due respect, if you are legally drawing your weapon in any capacity, that is EXACTLY what HAS happened.

If you are not justified in shooting to stop a deadly force threat, you are not justified in drawing/shooting AT ALL.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I really think of how you carry your weapon as simply more steps between you and killing someone. Round chambered, safety on I see for situations when if the gun comes out, someone's dying and needs to die now. Loaded mag in the weapon no round, I would think of in a situation where the gun can be used "procedurally" or in situation control. No mag, it a situation where the gun comes out as a last resort and very seldom. Basically, each condition requires one additional step before someone dies. To me, the more distinct steps possible, the better. It simply requires more thought and deliberate action.

MBuzzy,

If you have ever been in a situation were you have been scared, I mean real scared? I have no doubt you know how hard it is to do fine motor skills or complex ones. It can be when your car skids, or you are drowning in a lake, or... someone about to kill you. Surely when your car is starting to skid on ice you don't want to a) power up the breakes, b) adjust the tire pressure, c) and steer all while the situation is going downhill. Or if you are drowning you don't want to have to undo the safety latch on your CO2 powered life preserver, unwind the cord, and then inflate it. No, you just want to jirk the cord... NOW!

Adding more steps does not help at all. It takes your mind off the situation at hand where you could have spent extra time de-esclationg the situation instead of trying to bring a gun up into a readiness state.

And that is why U.S. cops use simple weapons like Glocks. They do not want extra steps. And they don't carry chamber empty handguns either. And they speak with many volumes of experience.

Deaf

 

[jks9199]

Luckily, according to the law, you can carry your weapon however you want with the right permit. My personal opinion is that I wouldn't carry with a mag in. But I also wouldn't carry a weapon without a very specific purpose. I have never been in a situation where I've said to myself "gee, I wish I had a gun right now." So that does color my statements a bit.

I really think of how you carry your weapon as simply more steps between you and killing someone. Round chambered, safety on I see for situations when if the gun comes out, someone's dying and needs to die now. Loaded mag in the weapon no round, I would think of in a situation where the gun can be used "procedurally" or in situation control. No mag, it a situation where the gun comes out as a last resort and very seldom. Basically, each condition requires one additional step before someone dies. To me, the more distinct steps possible, the better. It simply requires more thought and deliberate action. But it is still all a matter of preference. I wouldn't advocate for any change in SOP or in laws or rules. Just my opinion. The only times I've ever have been in target practice and Iraq....basically two different ends of the spectrum.

by the way, please take no offence, I don't use the term civilian in a derogatory sense. In my opinion, officers not on duty, military not on duty, federal agents not on duty, etc are all civilians also. Basically I just use it as someone who doesn't carry in an official capacity.

What "specific purpose" would you carry a gun for? If you're carrying a gun solely to go out and kill someone, you're pretty much contemplating murder unless it's in the line of military duty. (Note that US police DO NOT carry guns to kill people; we carry guns to protect ourselves and others. The fact that someone may die when we employ them is an unfortunate byproduct.)

If you're carrying a gun to protect yourself -- it needs to be ready to use because you won't have time to mess with it when you need it. What you're suggesting is akin to suggesting that a trained martial artist needs to walk around with his hands tied behind his back unless he's being actively attacked, or that you should have to carry a knife disassembled in different pockets.

With all due respect, if you are legally drawing your weapon in any capacity, that is EXACTLY what HAS happened.

If you are not justified in shooting to stop a deadly force threat, you are not justified in drawing/shooting AT ALL.

Well said. That's all that it amounts to.

MBuzzy,

If you have ever been in a situation were you have been scared, I mean real scared? I have no doubt you know how hard it is to do fine motor skills or complex ones. It can be when your car skids, or you are drowning in a lake, or... someone about to kill you. Surely when your car is starting to skid on ice you don't want to a) power up the breakes, b) adjust the tire pressure, c) and steer all while the situation is going downhill. Or if you are drowning you don't want to have to undo the safety latch on your CO2 powered life preserver, unwind the cord, and then inflate it. No, you just want to jirk the cord... NOW!

Adding more steps does not help at all. It takes your mind off the situation at hand where you could have spent extra time de-esclationg the situation instead of trying to bring a gun up into a readiness state.

And that is why U.S. cops use simple weapons like Glocks. They do not want extra steps. And they don't carry chamber empty handguns either. And they speak with many volumes of experience.

Deaf

The various Glocks are pretty near perfect cop-guns. Minimal extra parts or steps to deal with, tolerant of abuse (see HERE, for a measure of how much abuse a Glock can take!), and reliable. I don't like that you need to pull the trigger to field strip it; that's caused more than a few accidental discharges.

And the simple fact that is that when it's hitting the fan, you don't have time, coordination, or mental ability to handle a lot of extra steps. See Dave Grossman's description of the physiological effects of life-or-death combat HERE and HERE. As fine motor control goes down, the last thing you want to be doing is juggling with a magazine, trying to rack a slide, and so on before you're able to defend yourself.

 

[MBuzzy]

All very good point, I believe I may have to alter my opinion!

I suppose that my line of thinking is more to prevent the "passion" shootings or "oops I pulled the trigger" which probably isn't much of an issue. Those who carry are generally responsible enough not to worry about it.

That is a very good point that when the situation does arise, motor control goes out the window....which is what is making me backpeddle a bit. I've been in situations where I probably could not have gotten the weapon out of the holster, let alone loaded and racked.

Honestly, I've never carried outside of a firing range or uniform so its good to see the other perspective.