Drawing and firing, "Israeli-style"

[kwaichang]

What states recognize your permit (or like Alaska and Vermont, you don't need no stinken permit!)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

http://www.kc3.com/index.html

and others. Huge amont of info.

Deaf

Indeed. It's one of the reasons I miss Arizona so much. Nothing like going grocery shopping and seeing your fellow citizens strapped with their 45's.

 

[jks9199]

I highly doubt that there is any LE agency/department in the USA that mandates carry with an empty-chamber (and I'd be very interested to hear of any). I'm almost positive that there is no state that requires this for CCW holders.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet it's the exact opposite. We're trained to carry a full mag, plus one in the chamber. So, on my duty belt with my issued Glock 22, I've got 2 full spare mags (15 each, for 30 rounds) as well as 1 in the gun (another 15) and one in the chamber for total of 46 rounds...

 

[kwaichang]

jks9199; yeah, in your neck of the woods you need all the ammo you can carry.
May you do your twenty and retire quietly.

 

[jks9199]

While owning several GLOCKS myself, and having carried one for 12 years of police duty, i've transitioned to carrying a 1911 because I prefer the trigger operation that enhances accuracy. You are correct, however, in that GLOCKS are inherently more reliable than just about any other handgun out of the box. But since i'm willing to spend the time and effort in keeping my custom 1911 clean, correctly oiled, and the proper springs changed at the proper time, it's an acceptable trade off.

I wouldn't recommend a 1911 to anyone who merely wished a reliable reasonably accurate 'buy and forget until I need it' gun....a GLOCK has that market cornered in spades....it requires virtually ZERO maintainance and fires the first time every time.

Jeff Cooper grudgingly said it best.



About has a high a praise for any modern semi-auto pistol as you're likely to get from Col. Cooper....who detested the typical long and heavy first shot triggers seen on Sigs, Berettas, Smiths and others, referring to them as 'Crunch Tickers'. I never felt poorly armed with a GLOCK.

That's why I said that the Glock is a damn near perfect COP gun; it's not the fanciest, best machined, prettiest or most just about anything else gun on the market. But Glocks almost invariable will work, no matter how they're used or abused. (I used to work with someone who NEVER in 5 years cleaned his, whether on the range or in the field. It never failed to fire... Not a practice I'd recommend, but it speaks well for the reliability.) The reality is that even a cop who's obsessive about cleaning and maintaining his sidearm is likely to need it sometime after he's been out in the rain, or had road crap blasted over them... That pristine gun he starts with every day isn't likely to be pristine when he needs it. And there are minimal extra steps to deal with, and it breaks down easily into a manageable set of parts. (Four; receiver/grip, barrel, slide, and spring.) The "finicky bits" aren't part of field service; only an armorer deals with them.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That's why I said that the Glock is a damn near perfect COP gun; it's not the fanciest, best machined, prettiest or most just about anything else gun on the market. But Glocks almost invariable will work, no matter how they're used or abused. (I used to work with someone who NEVER in 5 years cleaned his, whether on the range or in the field. It never failed to fire... Not a practice I'd recommend, but it speaks well for the reliability.) The reality is that even a cop who's obsessive about cleaning and maintaining his sidearm is likely to need it sometime after he's been out in the rain, or had road crap blasted over them... That pristine gun he starts with every day isn't likely to be pristine when he needs it. And there are minimal extra steps to deal with, and it breaks down easily into a manageable set of parts. (Four; receiver/grip, barrel, slide, and spring.) The "finicky bits" aren't part of field service; only an armorer deals with them.

Oh yeah, if you're going to issue guns (a practice I have mixed feelings about) the GLOCK is #1 on any list. I would NEVER issue anyone a 1911.

 

[Archangel M]

The newer and custom 1911's can be finky, but the Army Issued one I carried back in the 80's-90's was pretty AK47 like in its reliability. Not as accurate Ill grant you, but rain, mud and sand wouldnt keep it from its appointed rounds, so to speak.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The newer and custom 1911's can be finky, but the Army Issued one I carried back in the 80's-90's was pretty AK47 like in its reliability. Not as accurate Ill grant you, but rain, mud and sand wouldnt keep it from its appointed rounds, so to speak.

Actually the problem with the standard 1911 comes from the ammunition. The old ones fired ball pretty handily, but due to the angle of the barrel to the magazine, loading different types of ammunition can be a problem. That's why custom 1911's have throated barrels.

As for the 1911's on the market that aren't reliable, there are some custom shops producing some pretty darned reliable (and need I say accurate) 1911s. I have a Nighthawk Talon 1911 made by Nighthawk Custom that is uber-reliable. Likewise you'll find the reliability of Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer etc are plenty reliable. But be prepared to spend $2500.00 and up for such custom guns.

When you start talking semi-custom, however, such as Kimber, Colt and Springfields being produced right now, they may or may not be entirely reliable out of the box. Sometimes they need more gunsmithing and should be proofed for reliability before being relied on.

Moreover, as we go from full-sized 1911's to the smaller and shorter ones, reliability suffers.

Again i've heard it said best that a 1911 is not for every or most shooters.....

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You don't want to go shorter than Commander( 4 1/4-4 1/2 inch barrel) length in a 1911.

Shorter than that, if you grip it any kind of loosely when you shoot, expect it to become a jamomatic.

I have a Para Ordnance Lightweight Commander(all steel model) that has never given me a problem. But then I clean/oil it every time I use it.

 

[tellner]

My straight out of the box Norinco 1911 has been completely reliable and fed everything I've put through it without a problem.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Reliablty can be taken to the extreems.

Now I do like the fact the Glock can go 1000 rounds without cleaning. Does that mean I'll not clean it? Actually for my competion Glock 17, yes. Carry Glock, NO.

A well made 1911, if cleaned reguarly, will do fine (as will many other makes.) If they can go 400 rounds strait, well that's about all one can ask for a good gun to do. If you get more, great!

You will find most revolvers won't go 400 rounds before they get grudgy and the cylinder is hard to turn, but then 400 rounds through a wheel gun is quite a lot!

One of the keys to reliablity is to shoot the gun when it's hot. That is, fire several magazines out of it as fast as you can, till it's smoken. If it will do that, which is abnormal, then that indicates it will hold together when needed.

You can then fire then weapon on it's side, upside down, limp wristed, weak handed, low powered loads, hot loads, and other not so normal methods to see if it fails. There are many good checks to see if your carry gun is rock solid.

Deaf

 

[sgtmac_46]

My straight out of the box Norinco 1911 has been completely reliable and fed everything I've put through it without a problem.

And that happens....but the issue is consistency. Your Norinco works great, the next one out of the same lot has problems. It's hit or miss. When you find one that works great, don't sell it for love or money!

 

[tellner]

And that happens....but the issue is consistency. Your Norinco works great, the next one out of the same lot has problems. It's hit or miss. When you find one that works great, don't sell it for love or money!

Definitely. Over the years I've coddled and accessorized that gun to within an inch of its life - two piece guide rod, ambidextrous safety, beaver tail grip safety, extended slide stop, snubbed hammer, flat checkered mainspring housing, Crimson Trace grips and tritium night sights. Some day I'll probably have it Duracoated.

A good 1911 is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. And you can't hardly kill 'em with a stick.

 

[KenpoTex]

A good 1911 is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. And you can't hardly kill 'em with a stick.

Yup. I agree with Tom Givens' statement that "a properly built, well-tuned 1911 is one of the finest fighting tools ever created" (or words to that effect). It's just unfortunate that it's hard to find a good one (which is why I carry and recommend a Glock).

JMB is probably spinning in his grave at the thought of all these companies pumping out shoddy copies of his masterpiece.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Definitely. Over the years I've coddled and accessorized that gun to within an inch of its life - two piece guide rod, ambidextrous safety, beaver tail grip safety, extended slide stop, snubbed hammer, flat checkered mainspring housing, Crimson Trace grips and tritium night sights. Some day I'll probably have it Duracoated.

A good 1911 is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. And you can't hardly kill 'em with a stick.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yup. I agree with Tom Givens' statement that "a properly built, well-tuned 1911 is one of the finest fighting tools ever created" (or words to that effect). It's just unfortunate that it's hard to find a good one (which is why I carry and recommend a Glock).

JMB is probably spinning in his grave at the thought of all these companies pumping out shoddy copies of his masterpiece.

It's neither easy, nor more importantly CHEAP, tin find a good well-tuned 1911. Mine cost me $2500.00....but it was worth every penny.

A GLOCK is a service weapon, it's a reasonably accurate, uber-reliable combat instrument. A 1911 is precision device, well suited to combat in the right hands, but also a labor of love and devotion.

Anyone wanting a gun 'just in case' is well advised to buy a GLOCK.....I have 3....and i've carried the GLOCK on the road for nearly 12 years with never a thought of being poorly armed.

 

[Deaf Smith]

A 1911 is precision device, well suited to combat in the right hands, but also a labor of love and devotion.

Sad thing is, it wasn't that way many years ago and yet it was still reliable back then!

Look, those WW1, WW2, and later.45s (up to the early 70s) were know to be reliable and well, just fair in accuracy. But they sure wern't 'precision devices'! Rattled like a can of BBs they did.

My Colt 1991 Govt. .45 is pretty reliable. Not Glock reliable, but pretty good. It cost me $500. I just added a Kings spade grip safety, trigger, and had a modest trigger job done. Now my Kimber Gold match shoots rings around it, but for CCW, I don't need that much accuracy (nor 1000+ dollar ccw guns!) I need reliablilty and just 'OK' accuracy. If it will hit a 12 oz coke can every time at 20 yards, slow fire, well that's plenty good in my book.

But why do I pack a Glock over the 1911? Weight is why. Weight and size.

Now like other have posted, the mico .45s arn't real reliable (and you have to change the springs out every 500 rounds or so). Plus those micro .45s KICK! So that leaves the steel 1911 or commander size guns. They are heavy and they are big (yes I know about the LW Commander, owned several.) Cooper was right, God intended for the 1911 to be a 5 inch barrel slegehammer.

Glocks are neather big nor heavy (at least the midsize and sub-compacts arn't.)

That and the reliability of the Glocks is what lead me to the dark side of polymer.

Deaf

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sad thing is, it wasn't that way many years ago and yet it was still reliable back then!

Look, those WW1, WW2, and later.45s (up to the early 70s) were know to be reliable and well, just fair in accuracy. But they sure wern't 'precision devices'! Rattled like a can of BBs they did.

My Colt 1991 Govt. .45 is pretty reliable. Not Glock reliable, but pretty good. It cost me $500. I just added a Kings spade grip safety, trigger, and had a modest trigger job done. Now my Kimber Gold match shoots rings around it, but for CCW, I don't need that much accuracy (nor 1000+ dollar ccw guns!) I need reliablilty and just 'OK' accuracy. If it will hit a 12 oz coke can every time at 20 yards, slow fire, well that's plenty good in my book.

But why do I pack a Glock over the 1911? Weight is why. Weight and size.

Now like other have posted, the mico .45s arn't real reliable (and you have to change the springs out every 500 rounds or so). Plus those micro .45s KICK! So that leaves the steel 1911 or commander size guns. They are heavy and they are big (yes I know about the LW Commander, owned several.) Cooper was right, God intended for the 1911 to be a 5 inch barrel slegehammer.

Glocks are neather big nor heavy (at least the midsize and sub-compacts arn't.)

That and the reliability of the Glocks is what lead me to the dark side of polymer.

Deaf

Can't fault your logic.