Does your WC use an upward elbow?

[JPinAZ]

Maybe your idea of what is WCK and what isn't is a bit more rigid than mine.

I agree there are many approaches to WC application. When I'm talking centerline, I don't feel it's about being rigid or not, it's about what gives rise to WC's ideas of maximum efficiency. Maybe some approaches are more efficient than others (?)

Because stepping off the line to avoid a strong attack and establish a new centerline that is more to one's advantage is an accepted part of any Wing Chun system I have studied. "Flanking" is one term that is sometimes used and is found in both TWC as well as Pin Sun.

I hear ya, but how does anyone know if the incoming attack is strong or otherwise if they are moving prior to contact?

If we are talking about losing our structure, position or personal space due to a strong bridge or overwhelming force after or upon engagement, then sure, we move as we have to! I think I eluded to that in my last post. And I'm not saying implying we stand our ground at all costs, that would be quite silly!

But in WC, IMO we don't look 'avoid' anything (maybe just semantics) - we react to we get form our opponent. This is where loi lau hoi sung comes into play. From what I see, he isn't moving in the clip because he feels overwhelmed upon engagement - he's moving away from Centerline prior to engagement. Hopefully you can see the point

Regarding 'flanking', I do understand and agree with setting ourselves up during Bai Jong to give ourselves a slight edge or positional advantage over our opponent (I guess this could be called flanking), and I surely understand we always seek to gain the superior position. Maybe it's a different focus, but I also learned very early on we don't move when we don't have to, And in my experience we don't give up centerline when we don't have to. No centerline = no wing chun. If this is 'rigid' thinking, then guilty as charged! haha

Maybe in the video demo Anthony wouldn't have HAD to step off like he did, but it was a demo and he was illustrating a point.

Possible! Maybe I missed it, but what point is he trying to make by giving up centerline before engagement? (no dig here, honest question)

 

[dudewingchun]

Here's another video with Alan Orr using the vertical forearm/rising elbow defensively as a cover/deflection/block at punching range. He explains it as a practical adaptation to man/wu sau or equally of tan sau (explanation starting at about 2:30 in the clip).

Personally, his explanation seems very sensible and practical to me. After getting nailed with hooks trying to use the very classical "training" versions of tan sau, etc., I started moving toward this type of movement, all the while feeling a bit guilty about it. Then I came across Alan's stuff and thought Aha! Validation!

Like Alan demonstrates in the video, it flows very naturally functioning as a man/wu sau or tan sau and then back into strikes. Closer in, it both covers/deflects and makes a powerful ding jarn (butting elbow) to the chest or chin without violating stance and structure the way Wong does, and when someone shoots on you, the forearm strike combined with a sprawl makes a good offensive defense.

So any of you guys using stuff like this?

Has anyone here actually trained with Alan ?? I have and his skill is extremely good. If you havent trained with him you have no idea. I didnt from watching his videos. His structure is very good and he can move your body around so easily in chi sao. He can fight too.. very good and he hits like a truck. I doubt any wing chun . The ideas he uses work, his students are all very very good too. I literally have nothing bad to say about it. I visited him and now I dont want to train with anyone else. His body stucture ideas make perfect sense when he explains them too.

 

[geezer]

Has anyone here actually trained with Alan ?

KPM, who posts here from time to time, was doing Alan's online program. I don't know if he has worked with Alan in person though. As for myself, I would jump at the opportunity, except Alan is in New Zealand isn't he? It's a bit of a drive from Arizona. Especially the watery stretches!

As far as his skills go, of course you have to "cross-bridges" to really experience someone's level of ability, but from what I've seen of the way he moves his sparring partner's bodies around, controlling their balance even when they are totally non-compliant is impressive. As is the fact that his students can apply their stuff in the ring.