Does your WC use an upward elbow?

[geezer]

Does your WC use an upward elbow? You know, the kind that rises up vertically in front, with your hand moving almost like you are combing your hair and hitting either with the forearm or the elbow point.

Just as an illustration, here's "Master Wong" doing his version. His body dynamics are not at all typical of WC, but it does show the kind of elbow I'm referring to:

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feExofrJ8rc

Anyway, do you use anything of this nature either to strike, cover, or block? And if so, do you find this movement anywhere in your forms?

 

[Vajramusti]

Does your WC use an upward elbow? You know, the kind that rises up vertically in front, with your hand moving almost like you are combing your hair and hitting either with the forearm or the elbow point.

Just as an illustration, here's "Master Wong" doing his version. His body dynamics are not at all typical of WC, but it does show the kind of elbow I'm referring to:

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feExofrJ8rc

Anyway, do you use anything of this nature either to strike, cover, or block? And if so, do you find this movement anywhere in your forms?

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yes-but not in the wong way

 

[Vajramusti]

yes-but not in the wong way

 

[KPM]

Yes! In Pin Sun it has dual application. Its not only applied as an upward elbow, but the motion is also used as a high cover, somewhat like western boxing. It is part of one version of the 2nd short set, and so considered very basic to the system.

 

[yak sao]

Hey geezer, check out these guys. They seem to be an offshoot of EWTO.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Disclaimer: I am a Chum Kiu level student, and do not study the 3rd empty hand form and all of the elbow applications that come from it.

However, I do know that in my school (WT roots) there is a movement taught whereby the hand follows a path almost like slicking your hair back so similar in appearance, while keeping the elbow tight in front of you. Ours is passive in the sense that its generally when contact has already been made, it follows the opponent's force and guides opponent around you while protecting the head. Its really only as a response to someone who tried to pin that arm but their vector was too wide.

What Wong is doing before stepping in with the elbow reminds more of a common Krav Maga technique for protecting the head from circular strikes, and in some kickboxing.

 

[Danny T]

We do have use the movement of the elbow as shown however it is not applied in the manner shown by the comical master wong.

 

[geezer]

Hey geezer, check out these guys. They seem to be an offshoot of EWTO.

Yeah, ...a pretty far-off shoot from what I can see. They certainly deviate from center a lot, ..even when they don't have to.
So where in the WT forms would you find something like that vertical elbow?

 

[geezer]

Here's another video with Alan Orr using the vertical forearm/rising elbow defensively as a cover/deflection/block at punching range. He explains it as a practical adaptation to man/wu sau or equally of tan sau (explanation starting at about 2:30 in the clip).

Personally, his explanation seems very sensible and practical to me. After getting nailed with hooks trying to use the very classical "training" versions of tan sau, etc., I started moving toward this type of movement, all the while feeling a bit guilty about it. Then I came across Alan's stuff and thought Aha! Validation!

Like Alan demonstrates in the video, it flows very naturally functioning as a man/wu sau or tan sau and then back into strikes. Closer in, it both covers/deflects and makes a powerful ding jarn (butting elbow) to the chest or chin without violating stance and structure the way Wong does, and when someone shoots on you, the forearm strike combined with a sprawl makes a good offensive defense.

So any of you guys using stuff like this?

 

[wckf92]

Here's another video with Alan Orr using the vertical forearm/rising elbow defensively as a cover/deflection/block at punching range. He explains it as a practical adaptation to man/wu sau or equally of tan sau (explanation starting at about 2:30 in the clip).

Personally, his explanation seems very sensible and practical to me. After getting nailed with hooks trying to use the very classical "training" versions of tan sau, etc., I started moving toward this type of movement, all the while feeling a bit guilty about it. Then I came across Alan's stuff and thought Aha! Validation!

Like Alan demonstrates in the video, it flows very naturally functioning as a man/wu sau or tan sau and then back into strikes. Closer in, it both covers/deflects and makes a powerful ding jarn (butting elbow) to the chest or chin without violating stance and structure the way Wong does, and when someone shoots on you, the forearm strike combined with a sprawl makes a good offensive defense.

So any of you guys using stuff like this?

3rd form...no big deal. Use the letters as one sees fit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not a Wing Chun guy but so this is just insight from outside of WC. If you use your forearm to block like that then I'm going to crush it with punches. What he explains makes sense when using those gloves, but doesn't work the same with smaller gloves or without gloves, especially without the gloves where the knuckles have a greater depth of impact.

I use a similar fighting stance with my arm bent like that but at an angle so punches don't land solid . I a

The only time my arm like in the OP's original video is when I'm trying to break someone's hand. Even when Wong showed the elbow it didn't look like it had much force behind it for that type of attack. But for breaking the hand of an incoming jab there is more than enough force in that elbow to do that. Just a perspective from a different fighting system, I think too many people think use the elbow to strike the body or head. Using the elbow to break the hand would seem to me to be more natural with the movements of Wing Chun then trying to use it elbow to attack the body like Wong showed.

Just a thought from "someone on the outside looking in".

 

[geezer]

I'm not a Wing Chun guy but so this is just insight from outside of WC...

I think too many people think use the elbow to strike the body or head. Using the elbow to break the hand would seem to me to be more natural with the movements of Wing Chun then trying to use it elbow to attack the body like Wong showed.

WC is primarily a close range system, and strikes mainly target the head and body along it's central axis. We don't attack the weapon (arms and hands) we attack the weapon wielder, the "central command" and shut it down at the source if you will.

Now Escrima (my other art) begins at a longer range, and often we do target the hands since typically they are the first target you can reach. And you are quite right, elbows can be murder on your opponent's bare fists. But weapons are even nastier on the fists. Even a cellphone, pocket flashlight or ring of keys, for example, can really mess with an opponent's incoming jabs.

 

[KPM]

So any of you guys using stuff like this?

Yeah, but in Pin Sun it is not considered an "adaptation." It is considered a basic technique. We call it "Sao Sau" or "cover hand." In Pin Sun terminology, a Tan Sau that moves back instead forward is called a "Tun Sau" or "swallow hand." So, the natural progression of a Tun Sau that is deflecting while moving back is to rise up to cover the head. If I see something coming and start to raise my hand to meet it as a Tan or Tun and realize that there is no time to stop it, the motion naturally flows upward to cover the head as a Sao Sau.

Also of note, this is a common feature of Tang Yik Weng Chun as well. The basic form from Tang Yik Weng Chun has the hands swinging up and past the sides of the head and then forward as a back-knuckle strike in multiple places in the form.

 

[yak sao]

I've seen my Si-fu use tan in a number of different ways, rather than adhering to rigid structure, his arms seem to mold themselves around the attack.

As for where the upward elbow is in the forems, I don't really consider it a stretch to assume that if we can pull the elbow back into a tight chambered position, can we not do the reverse of that and allow the arm to swing back forward from the shoulder using the elbow / forearm as our striking surface?

 

[JPinAZ]

Here's another video with Alan Orr using the vertical forearm/rising elbow defensively as a cover/deflection/block at punching range. He explains it as a practical adaptation to man/wu sau or equally of tan sau (explanation starting at about 2:30 in the clip).

Personally, his explanation seems very sensible and practical to me. After getting nailed with hooks trying to use the very classical "training" versions of tan sau, etc., I started moving toward this type of movement, all the while feeling a bit guilty about it. Then I came across Alan's stuff and thought Aha! Validation!

Like Alan demonstrates in the video, it flows very naturally functioning as a man/wu sau or tan sau and then back into strikes. Closer in, it both covers/deflects and makes a powerful ding jarn (butting elbow) to the chest or chin without violating stance and structure the way Wong does, and when someone shoots on you, the forearm strike combined with a sprawl makes a good offensive defense.

So any of you guys using stuff like this?

Alan is using a VERY liberal and loose definition of wu sau he is applying his rhino guard technique. IMO this is not WC wu sau as it ignores WC body structure, range and gate/box theories for proper wu sau application. Same goes for some of his ideas on tan sau application. If it works for him, fine. I'm just not seeing it as WC wu sau/tan sau as it deviates too far from many of the principle/concept that give rise to those ideas..

As for taan sau against hooks, I'd say your problem was more likely using the wrong tool for the task

 

[wckf92]

WC is primarily a close range system, and strikes mainly target the head and body along it's central axis. We don't attack the weapon (arms and hands) we attack the weapon wielder, the "central command" and shut it down at the source if you will.

Now Escrima (my other art) begins at a longer range, and often we do target the hands since typically they are the first target you can reach. And you are quite right, elbows can be murder on your opponent's bare fists. But weapons are even nastier on the fists. Even a cellphone, pocket flashlight or ring of keys, for example, can really mess with an opponent's incoming jabs.

Weird...your WC is backwards from mine and your Escrima is spot on! haha

 

[geezer]

....As for taan sau against hooks, I'd say your problem was more likely using the wrong tool for the task

Judging by the results... I quickly came to the same conclusion.


A tight hook is tough. Now against a looping roundhouse punch or haymaker, I have had decent results with tan, and better with a aggressive palm-down fook-sau (or what the TST guys apparently call dai-sau), especially if I get my angle right (a DTE thing), and either jam it or "fade" away, moving with it and out of the power-arc.

 

[geezer]

Weird...your WC is backwards from mine and your Escrima is spot on! haha

You attack the hands and arms with your WC? Could you elaborate a little?

 

[JPinAZ]

A tight hook is tough. Now against a looping roundhouse punch or haymaker, I have had decent results with tan, and better with a aggressive palm-down fook-sau (or what the TST guys apparently call dai-sau), especially if I get my angle right (a DTE thing), and either jam it or "fade" away, moving with it and out of the power-arc.

For the looping roundhouse punches, from my experience with 4-gate defense strategies, a biu sau is much more suited to dealing with and cutting off the hooking punch than a taan sau. From a technique POV, taan sau lets the punch get too close and intercepts too late . The hook is allowed to generate it's full power and can swing right around the taan and still hit you. With a longer biu sau from center to the corner of the gate, you can cut the hook off before it generates full power, keep it further away AND even allow you to get slightly on top of it. What Alan shows with his rhino guard 'wu sau' defense, he's too late for any of these things and has no simultaneous offense/defense - it's really just a covering block.

But I agree, tight hooks are tough. Really tight hooks even more-so. But IMO, you'd either have to have done a lot wrong to allow someone into that super-close range to throw/land one, they were really good or the confrontation just started that close. At that point, none of the 4-gate defense tools would really work since you are out of space/timing for them to function both structurally or from a leverage pov (taan, biu, or otherwise). Elbows and emergency space/facing recovery tools come into play at that point.

 

[wckf92]

Judging by the results... I quickly came to the same conclusion.


A tight hook is tough. Now against a looping roundhouse punch or haymaker, I have had decent results with tan, and better with a aggressive palm-down fook-sau (or what the TST guys apparently call dai-sau), especially if I get my angle right (a DTE thing), and either jam it or "fade" away, moving with it and out of the power-arc.

Agree with the tight hook. I would use a Bil Sau...but against a roundhouse / haymaker...Tan is unbeatable IME.