Does sex sell in Martial Arts?

[Steve]

Ronda Rousey is making waves in women's MMA. For anyone who isn't familiar, she's currently 4-0 as a pro, and has completely dominated her opponents, winning by armbar within the first minute of each match.

Ronda looked to be on a collision course with Cyborg, but has been lobbying very publicly that the best fight for women's MMA right now is between her and Meisha Tate. Rousey has indicated that she would like to drop down a weight class to fight Tate for the belt.

But here's the rub. Rousey has made it very clear that one of the main draws on a Rousey/Tate matchup is that both of them are attractive and marketable. Like Carano, both Rousey and Tate are cute (or attractive or whatever) and that this will increase interest and visibility for ALL female MMAists.

So, what do you guys think? Clearly they are skilled athletes.

 

[Flea]

Not trying to be snotty here, but ... where doesn't sex sell? And where hasn't appearance been used as a draw to increase the audience for women's sports? Even if it's just the cheerleaders on the sidelines ...

 

[Steve]

Not trying to be snotty here, but ... where doesn't sex sell? And where hasn't appearance been used as a draw to increase the audience for women's sports? Even if it's just the cheerleaders on the sidelines ...

Not snotty at all, Flea! I kind of agree, but I'm curious where you guys draw the line. What I guess I'm getting at is whether or not it's "okay" to appreciate an athlete for their skill AND their looks. Or, my personal opinion, skill itself is pretty damned sexy.

But you get martial artists like Rousey and Tate, who are both very skilled AND very good looking. Does it make the event more interesting, or does it cheapen it?

Some commentary on this specific issue: http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/11/29/miesha-tate-ronda-rousey-and-the-argument-womens-mma-cant-st/

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/11/...-ronda-rousey-debate-pros-cons-fight-mma-news

http://espn.go.com/blog/mma/post/_/id/6585/tate-rousey-is-right-fight-not-just-for-looks

 

[Noah_Legel]

It most certainly does sell, and Ronda is awesome --she may be irritating people but she's not doing anything unusual for MMA hype-building. As for sex selling, think about it--martial artists are going to watch for the skills involved, regardless of looks, and people who don't train but study the sport are going to watch for the skills and the looks are a bonus, and the people who only casually watch are going to watch for the looks.

 

[Steve]

Images of Tate:

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/MieshaT2.jpg
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/mieshaweb03.jpg
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/mieshaweb02_1.jpg

I think it's safe to say that Meisha Tate is damn cute. She's also very skilled.

Rousey's last fight:

She's completely dominated all of her opponents.

 

[decepticon]

Would you consider it right if one of the top male MMA contenders wanted to fight another particular male fighter because he thought that it would be a great matchup since they were both so hot and attractive to look at...and also a good fighter? I get the feeling that fans would be all ticked off and yelling about how the sport should be about skill, not looks.

Sadly, sex sells. Ask any prostitute. So yes, attractive women in revealing clothing will attract viewers to the sport. I think the deeper question is to ask whether it will also cheapen and weaken the sport. Will setting the precedent for an emphasis on appearance begin to limit opportunities for less attractive competitors, male and female? Will girls all have to look like Angelina Jolie and guys like Fabio before they can get a match? Is this what you want the sport of MMA to become?

 

[ATC]

Well Ronda herself states why she wants to be at the top. She wants to be the face of women's MMA that is good to look at. I agree. It is OK to have skill but she also understands how to market herself to men. She is good looking and knows it, but can kick butt to. What a combo. She will be rather wealthy rather quick. Damn if only I were younger and single with no kids. :uhyeah:

clip mark 1:20 is what you will be looking to hear.

[yt]FiYpWzKt2d0#![/yt]

 

[Indagator]

Personally I don;t think it SHOULD be an issue, but the fact that groups such as the NWWL and Ultimate Surrender are out there sort of testifies to the fact that it is. I understand that they are not exactly mainstream, and while I have actually not seen bouts held under either organisation, I have heard a number of work colleagues and secular friends discussing the latest matches and so forth.
FWIW I do work with some very rough necked blue collar people!

Anyway as far as the issue goes, I think any woman does want to feel like an attractive person and a beautiful woman regradless of what their pursuit in life is, however I'd have thought any athlete regardless of gender would sooner be taken seriously for their skill and ability at their sport...

 

[ATACX GYM]

Sex will always sell.Period.

 

[Tez3]

When athletes in any sport get to the stage where it's a business for them then they have to use whatever advantages they can to get ahead of their competitors. However I would suggest it's more a fear of Cyborg rather than anything else that is the actual reason for this suggested matchup. Cyborg may not be 'pretty' but people pay to watch her fight and she has a big following, a match with her would be a good one. She brings a lot of publicity to female MMA.

If it were an issue about 'attractivness' then on the basis of the goodlooking girl always has ugly mates a match with Cyborg exactly fits the bill lol, no, I'm afraid Rousey doesn't want to meet Cyborg and face being beaten, not that I'd blame her, I wouldn't want to!

 

[Steve]

Would you consider it right if one of the top male MMA contenders wanted to fight another particular male fighter because he thought that it would be a great matchup since they were both so hot and attractive to look at...and also a good fighter? I get the feeling that fans would be all ticked off and yelling about how the sport should be about skill, not looks.

Sadly, sex sells. Ask any prostitute. So yes, attractive women in revealing clothing will attract viewers to the sport. I think the deeper question is to ask whether it will also cheapen and weaken the sport. Will setting the precedent for an emphasis on appearance begin to limit opportunities for less attractive competitors, male and female? Will girls all have to look like Angelina Jolie and guys like Fabio before they can get a match? Is this what you want the sport of MMA to become?

This is done all the time by male athletes. Not necessarily based upon looks, but there are other equally unrelated traits that are different sides of the same coin. For example, Brock Lesnar was a pro wrestler with practically zero MMA experience who came into the UFC after just one pro fight. He got a title shot in his second UFC fight. Why? Because it was an intriguing matchup that was likely to (and did) generate a lot of interest in MMA and the UFC in general.

This sort of thing happens all the time in boxing and in MMA. It's about skill, sure. But it's also about exposure and marketability, even in men's MMA.

The argument that Rousey is making is that pushing the exposure and visibility of women's MMA creates opportunities for ALL female athletes and brings money into the sport. There are other ways to generate visibility as Cyborg has done. She's a machine and has cultivated a "Tyson" like persona. All of it gets eyeballs on the sport.

Well Ronda herself states why she wants to be at the top. She wants to be the face of women's MMA that is good to look at. I agree. It is OK to have skill but she also understands how to market herself to men. She is good looking and knows it, but can kick butt to. What a combo. She will be rather wealthy rather quick. Damn if only I were younger and single with no kids. :uhyeah:

I pretty much agree with this. Once again, this isn't the only way to do it, but it's certainly one effective way.

Personally I don;t think it SHOULD be an issue, but the fact that groups such as the NWWL and Ultimate Surrender are out there sort of testifies to the fact that it is. I understand that they are not exactly mainstream, and while I have actually not seen bouts held under either organisation, I have heard a number of work colleagues and secular friends discussing the latest matches and so forth.
FWIW I do work with some very rough necked blue collar people!

Anyway as far as the issue goes, I think any woman does want to feel like an attractive person and a beautiful woman regradless of what their pursuit in life is, however I'd have thought any athlete regardless of gender would sooner be taken seriously for their skill and ability at their sport...

Okay. I had to look up what those things were and I'm glad I didn't do it at work. Are you really comparing what Rousey said to hardcore fetish porn? I don't agree at all. While I used the term "sex" in the title of the thread, I didn't mean to imply that actual sex was part of the package. They ARE legitimate, skilled athletes and should all be taken seriously as such. I think there's a clear distinction between female MMA in which the athletes are playing the business side with a little savvy, including considerations such as marketability and using the press, and suggesting that it's related to fetish porn.

When athletes in any sport get to the stage where it's a business for them then they have to use whatever advantages they can to get ahead of their competitors. However I would suggest it's more a fear of Cyborg rather than anything else that is the actual reason for this suggested matchup. Cyborg may not be 'pretty' but people pay to watch her fight and she has a big following, a match with her would be a good one. She brings a lot of publicity to female MMA.

If it were an issue about 'attractivness' then on the basis of the goodlooking girl always has ugly mates a match with Cyborg exactly fits the bill lol, no, I'm afraid Rousey doesn't want to meet Cyborg and face being beaten, not that I'd blame her, I wouldn't want to!

I agree with the first part completely. I'm not so sure she's ducking Cyborg as much as she's pursuing Tate. Rousey appears to be a bright girl and Cyborg is big. If Rousey can cut down to 135 and get the belt, it sets her up perfectly to negotiate a catch weight superfight with Cyborg.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

In the Martial Arts world, it is important to sell your product with significance in terms of skill, heart and the will. Sell the product on quality over quantity. However, I have a feeling that these days it is being reversed. I have always have so much respect for women in the Martial Arts they done many great things in a diverse range of styles. Little to I see, however, is that women are being portrayed as eye-candy and sex objects more than what they can do in the ring. I find it blasphemous. Yeah, most women in Martial Arts are beautiful, but is it important in Martial Arts?

 

[Tez3]

This is done all the time by male athletes. Not necessarily based upon looks, but there are other equally unrelated traits that are different sides of the same coin. For example, Brock Lesnar was a pro wrestler with practically zero MMA experience who came into the UFC after just one pro fight. He got a title shot in his second UFC fight. Why? Because it was an intriguing matchup that was likely to (and did) generate a lot of interest in MMA and the UFC in general.

This is one reason I don't believe the UFC has the best fighters, they have interesting ones, attractive ones and the ones that will make them money, these aren't necessarily the best fighters in the world rather the most marketable.

This sort of thing happens all the time in boxing and in MMA. It's about skill, sure. But it's also about exposure and marketability, even in men's MMA.

The argument that Rousey is making is that pushing the exposure and visibility of women's MMA creates opportunities for ALL female athletes and brings money into the sport. There are other ways to generate visibility as Cyborg has done. She's a machine and has cultivated a "Tyson" like persona. All of it gets eyeballs on the sport.

I pretty much agree with this. Once again, this isn't the only way to do it, but it's certainly one effective way.

Okay. I had to look up what those things were and I'm glad I didn't do it at work. Are you really comparing what Rousey said to hardcore fetish porn? I don't agree at all. While I used the term "sex" in the title of the thread, I didn't mean to imply that actual sex was part of the package. They ARE legitimate, skilled athletes and should all be taken seriously as such. I think there's a clear distinction between female MMA in which the athletes are playing the business side with a little savvy, including considerations such as marketability and using the press, and suggesting that it's related to fetish porn.

Wow, I'm glad you looked them up before I did, as you said there's no actual sex involved in the MMA marketing, that's not what the female fighters are about. that's very iffy linking female fighters to female porn, I doubt anyone would do that tbh, I don't know where he got that from!


I agree with the first part completely. I'm not so sure she's ducking Cyborg as much as she's pursuing Tate. Rousey appears to be a bright girl and Cyborg is big. If Rousey can cut down to 135 and get the belt, it sets her up perfectly to negotiate a catch weight superfight with Cyborg.

I'd duck Cyborg!

 

[Indagator]

Okay. I had to look up what those things were and I'm glad I didn't do it at work. Are you really comparing what Rousey said to hardcore fetish porn? I don't agree at all. While I used the term "sex" in the title of the thread, I didn't mean to imply that actual sex was part of the package. They ARE legitimate, skilled athletes and should all be taken seriously as such. I think there's a clear distinction between female MMA in which the athletes are playing the business side with a little savvy, including considerations such as marketability and using the press, and suggesting that it's related to fetish porn.

hi there.

i'm sorry you ended up seeing that, i have only been told of it myself.

i'm not comparing women's mma to something like that, but i am using it as a point to show that there is a vehicle for the marketability of sexuality via sport fighting.

the main reason i used it as an example was to take the concept to its most extreme end, and to augment my statement that i would think any athlete of either gender would prefer to be recognised for their abilities rather than their appearance.

beauty fades, skill matures...

 

[Josh Oakley]

Skill fades too. Sorry to break it to. I say enjoy the beauty, the skill, and the beauty OF the skill.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Does sex sell in the martial arts?

Yeah, it's what is known as marketing. Look at any Century catalog, Napma add, etc.etc. it is about selling the youth full look, the dream that hey I can be like them. Same thing with cute kids, wow look at the cute kid in a gi, my kid be could be like that. And so on, and so on.

Compare the adds in say Black belt, or the photos in the Century catalog, MA Success or Napma's magazine with say Classical Fighting Arts, in CFA it is pretty much all old men, if they got their shirt off it's promoting hard training not good looks. They are no buffed young women in tight MMA clothes in CFA nor cute kids they are marketing to a different crowd.

The UFC and the MMA is marketing to the younger male/female audience so of course they are going to promote and show more youth full appearing individuals. What is strange is that for the males it is to look tough and mean, and for the females it is to be young and attractive both promoting the same sport. Look at the adds promoting the sport or the fights for the men they are the hard cut mean battle scared warriors (images that are portrayed) and for the women it is I'm young and attractive and can still kick ***. I haven't seen many adds for MMA for women that show a huge ugly brawler, beat up with a black eye saying join MMA and look like me.

In regards to the women marketing themselves by trying to fight another pretty face, the men do it, why not the women. Back in the early 90's Kathy Long (a kick boxer) wanted to look more feminine out on the ring floor. So she wore more feminine looking boxing trunks and tops. She had the skill to back it up and her matches were no powder puff kick boxing they were some good fights (the few that I saw). I don't see anything wrong with this unless as some people have posted instead of having good fights you just have two pretty women playing around.

 

[Steve]

In the Martial Arts world, it is important to sell your product with significance in terms of skill, heart and the will. Sell the product on quality over quantity. However, I have a feeling that these days it is being reversed. I have always have so much respect for women in the Martial Arts they done many great things in a diverse range of styles. Little to I see, however, is that women are being portrayed as eye-candy and sex objects more than what they can do in the ring. I find it blasphemous. Yeah, most women in Martial Arts are beautiful, but is it important in Martial Arts?

It seems to me that this is pretty much the dilemma. Women's MMA isn't very deep yet, but the ladies who compete are skilled. The athletes have skill, heart and the will (as you put it) and they sell a quality product. But no one will see it if they don't market it. And if no on sees it, they don't make a living.

It's the dream of most professional athletes, regardless of their sport, to do it full time. They want to make enough money doing what they love so that they don't have to punch a time card anymore. So, I guess I don't find it blasphemous. I think it's very practical.

Also, I don't think it's been brought up yet, but while I would argue that MMA is a martial art, the sport of MMA is just that: a sport. For the pros who are trying to make a career out of it, it's also a business. It's all of these things at the same time.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/01/...red-miesha-tate-ronda-rousey-fight-pretty-ri/


"Sarah Kaufman saw the internet reports of a Miesha Tate-Ronda Rousey title at about the same time the rest of the MMA world did. She wasn't terribly surprised, she told MMA Fighting on Thursday, but neither was she particularly pleased.

"I think it's terrible news," the former Strikeforce 135-pound women's champ said, and you can probably guess why.

"I put in my time and, being the former champ and having had two fights since the only loss of my career, I've definitely earned the right to fight Miesha Tate and fight for the 135-pound title with Strikeforce," Kaufman explained. "Then there's Ronda, who's only been fighting for a year. Granted, she has her judo experience, but she hasn't fought anyone of a high caliber. She's fought at 145 pounds -- hasn't even competed at 135 pounds at all -- and for her to be given the opportunity to fight for the title, it's pretty ridiculous."



I'm not the only one it seems who thinks someone is scared to meet Cyborg.

 

[Steve]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/01/...red-miesha-tate-ronda-rousey-fight-pretty-ri/


"Sarah Kaufman saw the internet reports of a Miesha Tate-Ronda Rousey title at about the same time the rest of the MMA world did. She wasn't terribly surprised, she told MMA Fighting on Thursday, but neither was she particularly pleased.

"I think it's terrible news," the former Strikeforce 135-pound women's champ said, and you can probably guess why.

"I put in my time and, being the former champ and having had two fights since the only loss of my career, I've definitely earned the right to fight Miesha Tate and fight for the 135-pound title with Strikeforce," Kaufman explained. "Then there's Ronda, who's only been fighting for a year. Granted, she has her judo experience, but she hasn't fought anyone of a high caliber. She's fought at 145 pounds -- hasn't even competed at 135 pounds at all -- and for her to be given the opportunity to fight for the title, it's pretty ridiculous."



I'm not the only one it seems who thinks someone is scared to meet Cyborg.

You're not the only one. And she might be. The entire thing is stirring up a lot of attention on women's MMA, which ultimately is the entire point and good for the sport. We have Rousey insinuating that Tate is ducking her, which she denies, although you wonder why she would care who she fights since she's the champ. Then you've got Kaufman and Cyborg saying that Rousey is ducking Cyborg.

Which she might be, although I think that's a little odd since she's actively pursuing a fight for a professional belt. It happens all the time in Professional MMA. Guys routinely drop down a weight class to pursue a title shot. That doesn't mean they're ducking the guys in their current weight class.

No one can really know for sure but the athletes involved, but my sense is that Rousey is looking to shoot her visibility through the roof, and she's done that. She wants to go for the quick shot at the title against someone she believes she can beat. And then, as she stated in her press conference, she could push for a fight with Cyborg at a catch weight between two Strikeforce Champions. Her point, and it's a legit one, is that this would be a pretty big draw.

 

[Josh Oakley]

It definitely works both ways. I never played it up, but there is definitely something women find sexy about an in-shape guy wearing a martial arts uniform and a confident smile. I noticed that when I was running a dojo, we had more moms signing up their kids, wanting to talk to the instructors, checking us out when they thought we didn't notice. My own wife is guilty! She would pretend she didn't understand a kick so our instructor would demonstrate it and she could check out his butt. I made fun of her for that for a.long time!