Does one's skill flow from the kata?

[AlwaysTraining]

I asked an old shotokan sensei about the usefulness of kata. She said it is from the kata that your fighting techniques should come. She added that if you remain true to the tradition and focus/study the kata, your karate will be far more advanced than if you merely focus on combos and sparing. She said focusing on combos and the like will make you a slave to those techniques. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[Danny T]

I asked an old shotokan sensei about the usefulness of kata. She said it is from the kata that your fighting techniques should come. She added that if you remain true to the tradition and focus/study the kata, your karate will be far more advanced than if you merely focus on combos and sparing. She said focusing on combos and the like will make you a slave to those techniques. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Just because someone is old it doesn’t make them correct.
Just because someone is advanced it doesn’t make them correct.
Just because someone is an instructor it doesn’t make them correct.

I tend to associate forms as a Sears Carpenter Tool Catalog. I can peruse the catalog every day. I can know where every tool is and how to get to that part of the catalog, But that doesn’t make me someone who can use the tools in the manner they are designed for. I can order the tools, have them in my tool box, and know where each one is and what it is for. I can open the box every day and touch and act like I am using the tools. I can plug in the saw and turn it on as well as the drills. I can hold the hammer in my hand and whip it around in the air like I’m driving nails but until I actually use them in the manner they are designed for I will never be a carpenter. Just because I have the catalog doesn’t mean I can build a house.

Kata (forms) are the catalogs of movements, positions, and transitions. That is all. It is not fighting. It is not the use of the catalog which will make you effective. Nor is it the drills. They will help, certainly. What will make it work is your working in the environment you want to function. Working kata will make one very good at kata not fighting. Working on drills and combinations along will only make one good at drills. You have got to spar. Spar to learn how to manipulate timing, distance, rhythm, and cadence against someone who is aggressively resisting you, attacking, and counter attacking. Only then will you find out what is useful to you and when it is useful.


Now I believe sparring must be controlled and at first what one is wanting to train must be isolated. I want to work on defending and counter attacking off a reverse roundhouse kick. My training partner will first start by kicking at random times only the reverse roundhouse. As I become proficient in defending and/or countering my partner will start throwing other kicks and punches at a speed I can handle to set up the reverse roundhouse. I learn to find his timing, to start to manipulate distance, and my timing in-order to prevent his attack or to be in a position to counter-attack. This should be done will all aspects of punches, elbows, knees, kicks, and weapons, it you use them. Then start some free sparring and do it against as many different persons you are able. Also do it against multiple partners.

Kata will never prepare you to actually use the movements and positions at real time against a fully resisting opponent who continues to press the attack.

Danny Terrell

 

[Henderson]

I can see already that this is going to turn into a pro/anti-kata debate. These never end well, because usually both sides are too short sighted to learn from each other. Those who think kata is everything are fools. Those who claim kata is nothing, are even bigger fools. I will sit back and enjoy the fireworks. Pass the popcorn please.

Respects,

Frank

 

[green meanie]

opcorn:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think i am going to completely disagree with Danny T on kata's usefulness. This is usually a viewpoint by someone who is not really familiar with the uses of kata. (no offense, Danny)
i am also going to note that sparring is a contest and not real fighting.
techniques teach principle....kata teach principle and form.
If you study an art that contains kata.....those forms are the keys to knowing and understanding the art.
well rounded martial practitioners do not ignore any aspect of their training.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Learning forms is crucial to fighting. It ingrains moves and techniques into muscle memory. You may not use each move or technique exactly in the sequence performed in the form, but you will find movements and techniques coming out in isolated pieces as needed. Forms must be done over and over again and with the understanding of each application in every part of the form. If you just do forms with no understanding of the application behind each move then it won't help you much.

 

[Gemini]

i think i am going to completely disagree with Danny T on kata's usefulness. This is usually a viewpoint by someone who is not really familiar with the uses of kata. (no offense, Danny)
i am also going to note that sparring is a contest and not real fighting.
techniques teach principle....kata teach principle and form.
If you study an art that contains kata.....those forms are the keys to knowing and understanding the art.
well rounded martial practitioners do not ignore any aspect of their training.

I've tried three or four times to add something to this because I don't like posting "I agree"....only to erase it. It's direct, to the point and reflects someone who understands the purpose of the kata. So...

I agree

 

[BlackCatBonz]

:asian: thanks

 

[AlwaysTraining]

I agree with Black Cat and Sil Lum. Now, I don't deny that sparing is useful, but only to a point. Like Black Cat said, it's a contest... not a fight. It certainly does aid in the development of one's timing and distance judgement, but I believe it to be limited in it's ability to aid even those, because it's a controlled fight. I must admit, I would have to favor kata over all else. The essence of a style is in it's forms. Like what was said above, understand the forms and you will capture what makes the style what it is.

 

[Danjo]

I agree that kata is the heart of Karate. It is essential to understanding the art. However, much of what I have seen that is called "kata" now-a-days seems to be modern dance routines with a martial art flair. The old basic (some might say boring) kata are where the art is at, not the modern gymnastic spectacles seen at many tournements these days.

 

[Henderson]

I agree that kata is the heart of Karate. It is essential to understanding the art. However, much of what I have seen that is called "kata" now-a-days seems to be modern dance routines with a martial art flair. The old basic (some might say boring) kata are where the art is at, not the modern gymnastic spectacles seen at many tournements these days.

Exactly! Some made-up routine to the theme from The Lion King is NOT kata! Thank you.

Frank

 

[Danny T]

Skill comes from doing the movements in real time against someone really resisting. I understand the usefulness of forms. I didn’t say forms are un-useful. I use them in my classes and teach several different arts which use them. However, I don’t feel my doing forms or anyone else doing them will make one skillful in a fight.
I can learn all the form needed in order to swim. I can practice day after day breathing and making all the movements in the air I can have great form and position. However until I get into the water, I am not swimming.

I understand your disagreement with me, it is ok. Forms are an important part of training. Yes, I agree. Drills are very important also. Some one stated kata ingrains movement and technique into muscle memory. I agree whole heartedly with this. It does it so well that it hinders many practitioners. The moves are so ingrained that when the opponent does something different or “in the wrong way” the kata practitioner does the same move they have working over and over exactly the way the kata did. Problem is, it is now exactly the wrong move. Many athletes work form, golf, tennis, shot-put throwers, discus throwers,… the list is long. Take a golf player. He/she can work their stance, their backswing, their fore-ward swing, the follow through over and over with great form. They can be smooth and have the proper weight transfer but until they actually address the ball and hit it with the club they are not playing golf. A baseball batter can work his batting form for hours on end day after day but until he get into the batter’s box against a pitcher throwing the ball in a manner to prevent him for getting a good hit. He is not a batter. Will working the form help once they have the timing down for their swing assuring the ball is hit properly yes. But the skill they have of swinging the club or bat will not be the same skill or ability another has if the other has actually been hitting the ball! Football players work their forms for blocking and tackling. The spend time on the blocking and tackling sleds but then they spend more time actually practicing blocking and tackling against a real person who is trying to block or not get tackled. Now Why would they do that if the form is more important. Airline Pilots practice flying in a simulator, I have had practice in a simulator but I promise you Do Not Want To Fly With Me! I am not a pilot.

Kata/Forms do have their place in training but I place far more importance on actually using the movements in the environment one will actually have to function in. Kata does not address timing, distance and rhythm. It doesn’t address the pressure the opponent places on the practitioner. It doesn’t address you getting hit or kicked and having to continue. It doesn’t address the actual act of being attacked by multiply opponents at the same time. It does address, form, position, stance, structure, movement, transitions, and introduces many concepts one can possibly use against another.

Kata teaches principles.

Principles are the rules which govern the movements of the system and the proper use of the principles allows the practitioner the ability to create techniques as needed. Ok give me an example of kata teaching principle vs kata using principle for its movements.

concerning sparring. It certainly does aid in the development of one's timing and distance judgement, but I believe it to be limited in it's ability to aid even those, because it's a controlled fight. I must admit, I would have to favor kata over all else.

So kata isn’t controlled and you would take it over learning to be able to control or manipulate timing and distance? Kata is far more controlled than any sparring. Why the kata practitioner does the same movements each time he does a particular kata, right? Sparring is controlled somewhat or should be. However, at the higher levels of sparring one doesn’t know what will be thrown or when. A roundhouse kick may be high or low and the practiced punch from kata coming from the left hand may not be available therefore can’t be utilized at any one particular moment. That wonderful punch, punch, turn, block, kick movement one has practiced over and over in kata suddenly never materializes against a live opponent.

Again I agree Kata has a place and usefulness however, I do not feel it is the most important unless the practitioner is an art or forms practitioner.

Danny Terrell

 

[BlackCatBonz]

here is the short reply to your post.
the way you describe the usefulness of a kata is by practicing that which is obvious.
this to me signifies a novices take on kata.
this in no way means i think that you are a novice. there are many people that have been practicing martial arts for many years longer than i have, that have still not looked at the elements that lie beneath the surface.
understanding kata includes the big picture and being able to read between the lines.

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=646

 

[tshadowchaser]

As to what the lady instructor said I belive that she had most likely reached a stage in her training whe she truly felt the flow of the movment within the techniques and most likely knew she could flow form what she ws doing into something else whith out thinking about it.
There comes a time in the doing of a form (for some people) where time and space seem to mean nothing and they ( as the saying goes) become one with the form. Not saying this happens to everyone or that it happnes to one person all the time but it is a moment when the body, mind,spirt all seem to join with in the movement of the form.
Think she may also have been hinting that there is more to some of the old katas than first is seen on taught

 

[Wes Tasker]

The way I teach, forms make up about one third of the training. One third are drills, and one third is sparring. Forms give you the principles, structures, mechanics, etc. of the system. With regards to what Mr. Terrell said-

Principles are the rules which govern the movements of the system and the proper use of the principles allows the practitioner the ability to create techniques as needed. Ok give me an example of kata teaching principle vs kata using principle for its movements.

I think this question is non sequitor as forms have to teach principles etc. as they manifest in a technique, which is an example of a greater principle, mechanic etc. All forms, techniques, etc. teach principles and mechanics and structures - but they have to do it through examples. The mistake is not seeing through the "example" to the underlying teachings.

The forms, techniques, etc. give you the tools. Drills that vary in predicitabilty and risk give you the venue to use these tools and gain confidence in them through various types of scenarios. Then sparring gives you the next step of using the tools in a more "free" environment. I find that if people don't drill, they will resort to what works for them in sparring and rarely try something new. People who just drill will often fall apart in sparring. And people who just spar and don't drill and don't have forms to draw from or some type of index towards their system - will often times not have the "tool kit" to deepen their applications. And people who just do forms will never get the chance to start actualizing what they know from the forms. Forms, techniques, etc. have a wealth of things to teach, but only if followed through with drills and some type of sparring to start functionalizing the inherent principles etc. that they contain.

-wes tasker

 

[Danjo]

The way I teach, forms make up about one third of the training. One third are drills, and one third is sparring. Forms give you the principles, structures, mechanics, etc. of the system.

The forms, techniques, etc. give you the tools. Drills that vary in predicitabilty and risk give you the venue to use these tools and gain confidence in them through various types of scenarios. Then sparring gives you the next step of using the tools in a more "free" environment. I find that if people don't drill, they will resort to what works for them in sparring and rarely try something new. People who just drill will often fall apart in sparring. And people who just spar and don't drill and don't have forms to draw from or some type of index towards their system - will often times not have the "tool kit" to deepen their applications. And people who just do forms will never get the chance to start actualizing what they know from the forms. Forms, techniques, etc. have a wealth of things to teach, but only if followed through with drills and some type of sparring to start functionalizing the inherent principles etc. that they contain.

-wes tasker

I agree with this completely. Forms are what preserves the art, drills give you timing and enhance your reflexes, and sparring helps you put it all together. Very well put.

 

[Danny T]

here is the short reply to your post.
the way you describe the usefulness of a kata is by practicing that which is obvious.
this to me signifies a novices take on kata.
this in no way means i think that you are a novice. there are many people that have been practicing martial arts for many years longer than i have, that have still not looked at the elements that lie beneath the surface.
understanding kata includes the big picture and being able to read between the lines.

I would say you are using Kata esoterically. I am using the kata as a list or catalog. We all know or should know intrinsic of kata all movement, posture, and transition has multiple connotations, each being dependent upon one's relationship with the opponent, spatially as well as kinetically. Within these connotations are the simple as well as the often so called secret techniques.(I don't believe in secret techniques, they are all there hidden in plain view.) The empty hand as well as many of the weapon aspects also. However, simply doing Kata one will never see the implied possibilities. Associated drills must be utilized also. I’m certain this is done. However, drills are not kata, or at least in my opinion. In one of the systems I teach the first form appears to be only a hand and structure form. It is the lowest level form for the beginner yet at the highest level in the system the very same form is the most advanced. Yet it is only a catalog or listing of the positions implying much more. The movements of any form are only that movement. What is possible within the movement is the treasure. I understand this. I would even be so bold as to say I could watch most any kata and give some detailed applications of the movements. They may or may not be what any one systems kata may be attempting to display but within the movement I can give a possibility. I say possibility because the techniques are not absolute but are based upon the circumstances. This is within any kata. Again that is the treasure of the kata. If the practitioner is taught properly they will be able to see and understand the implication quickly. Once that is done we drill, drill, and spar, returning to the form only as a reminder or reference of possibilities. There are Forms, Drills, and Applications and more often than not the applications don't look like the forms or the drills. Understanding the applications and being able to perform them in real time against a resisting opponent is not the same thing. Kata, in my opinion will never train a person to function with a high level of performance in a combat situation. Having an understanding of principles, you know how to apply them for the creation of technique. Great. That is what your training should help you with. Can you do it at real time under the pressure and stress of physical combat? Maybe I have only been associated with novice practitioners. I find the ability to function in combat comes from experience. Other than actually going out and fighting or stepping into a sport fight arena, the best thing to get expeience is to spar.

Danny Terrell

 

[Danny T]

Hi Wes, Hope all is well with you.

With regards to what Mr. Terrell said-

I think this question is non sequitor as forms have to teach principles etc. as they manifest in a technique, which is an example of a greater principle, mechanic etc. All forms, techniques, etc. teach principles and mechanics and structures - but they have to do it through examples. The mistake is not seeing through the "example" to the underlying teachings.

I can be a bit anal at times. So please take this with a grain of salt. I understand what you are saying, however, I don't feel forms can teach. An instructor or teacher can impart knowledge through the use of forms, and an individual with some knowledge, insight, and an open mindness can use forms to help gain a higher level of understanding but (here is my analness) forms themselves cannot teach. I don't want to get into a discussion about the symantics. I do understand. I just don't want to. LOL!

The forms, techniques, etc. give you the tools. Drills that vary in predicitabilty and risk give you the venue to use these tools and gain confidence in them through various types of scenarios. Then sparring gives you the next step of using the tools in a more "free" environment. I find that if people don't drill, they will resort to what works for them in sparring and rarely try something new. People who just drill will often fall apart in sparring. And people who just spar and don't drill and don't have forms to draw from or some type of index towards their system - will often times not have the "tool kit" to deepen their applications. And people who just do forms will never get the chance to start actualizing what they know from the forms. Forms, techniques, etc. have a wealth of things to teach, but only if followed through with drills and some type of sparring to start functionalizing the inherent principles etc. that they contain.

I agree. So does your skill flow from the form? I believe that was the question. In my opinion, No. Does form help? Yes. I feel martial skill comes from doing the associated drills and sparring. Not from the form. That is unless one is a forms practitioner. Then doing the drills will only help with the form.

Danny Terrell

 

[MJS]

I asked an old shotokan sensei about the usefulness of kata. She said it is from the kata that your fighting techniques should come. She added that if you remain true to the tradition and focus/study the kata, your karate will be far more advanced than if you merely focus on combos and sparing. She said focusing on combos and the like will make you a slave to those techniques. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Kata, like everything, has its place. It is however, one piece of the puzzle. To say that kata is all that needs to be done in order to be able to fight, is IMO, incorrect. Sparring, along with the other aspects of the arts, need to be drilled as well.

Mike

 

[Danjo]

I agree. So does your skill flow from the form? I believe that was the question. In my opinion, No. Does form help? Yes. I feel martial skill comes from doing the associated drills and sparring. Not from the form. That is unless one is a forms practitioner. Then doing the drills will only help with the form.

I think that they do flow from the forms in part. They also flow from drills and sparring.