Does competition have its uses?

Drag'n

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"I don't see competition as being that much different."

I disagree. I spar regularly, but even in full contact sparring there is a certain amount of controll. The focus is on learning rather than on a KO.
That little bit of extra agression and the fact that you often know nothing about your opponent makes it(competition) a very different experience to sparring in the dojo.
Plus the added tension of having loads of people watching and judjing you, really puts you in a state of adrenaline overload similar to what you would experience in a real street fight.This is perhaps 1 of the most important things to learn to deal with, to be effective, and comps are probably 1 of the best ways to get the necessarry experience.
Also in the dojo protective gear is usually worn to lessen injuries.
When the gear comes off for a comp the pain factor can cause you to fight somewhat differently.
I highly recommend competion for anyone who seriously wants to improve their fighting skills.
OH and 1 more point. Knowing you have to face someone in the ring next month makes you train really hard!
 

Feisty Mouse

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JKogas said:
Let's put it this way: A "JKD man" should be able to fight under any circumstances and within any environment.
Or the "JKD woman". :D
 

DeLamar.J

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I think competition is very important to prove your art is useful. I know that men who need to prove there points are not wise, but part of me still belives that you need to show your not just another toothless tiger with all your stripes and colors.
People nowadays need TRUTH, and competition is the best way to give it. Not some point fighting crap either, I mean full contact kickboxing, ufc, ECT.
 

Floating Egg

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I'm going to make a comparison between hard or full contact sparring in a training environment and argument. Please bear with me while I make this unusual analogy.

In order to have a productive argument, the parties involved must be cooperating, and the goal should not be to bludgeon the interlocutor. Classical argument, when used correctly, should be about the search for truth.

I view Martial Arts in much the same way. I understand that this is a controversial view of what we do, but when I'm training with someone in my dojo, I do not have a competitive mindset. I do not intend to beat my partner. Instead, I want to learn from them.

Now, can you learn from someone in sports? Yes, of course. That is how athletes progress, but the focus is different. It's about winning something, whether it is recognition or a prize. To me, Martial Arts should be about something else entirely.

This is the first time I've explained myself in this manner, so please be patient with me. :D
 

DeLamar.J

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Floating Egg said:
I'm going to make a comparison between hard or full contact sparring in a training environment and argument. Please bear with me while I make this unusual analogy.

In order to have a productive argument, the parties involved must be cooperating, and the goal should not be to bludgeon the interlocutor. Classical argument, when used correctly, should be about the search for truth.

I view Martial Arts in much the same way. I understand that this is a controversial view of what we do, but when I'm training with someone in my dojo, I do not have a competitive mindset. I do not intend to beat my partner. Instead, I want to learn from them.

Now, can you learn from someone in sports? Yes, of course. That is how athletes progress, but the focus is different. It's about winning something, whether it is recognition or a prize. To me, Martial Arts should be about something else entirely.

This is the first time I've explained myself in this manner, so please be patient with me. :D

Dont worry about stating your opinion man, its ok. But here is where I disagree with you, when sparring, yes you want to learn instead of beating the person, but when you use your training in a REAL fight, you need to fight to win. You need to fight someone with the mindset of winning to really get the most from your training. And you can do that constructively through sport.
Alot of people look at martial arts in the way you do, its not ment for sport its ment for something far more noble ect ect. I understand where your comming from. But through sport you are promoting martial arts, your getting the next best thing next to real fighting, your entertaining people, expressing yourself through martial arts, and in a controlled environment. Your learning what its like to fight full contact, that is so important. Your not disrespecting the arts by competing, your learning, and promoting it.
You will also make yourself known in the martial arts community, and can make alot of friends that way. Compitition is a great thing as long as there is not to much ego and attitude involved, stay away from those types of organizations. There really is alot of great things that come out of competing.
 

Floating Egg

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Dont worry about stating your opinion man, its ok. But here is where I disagree with you, when sparring, yes you want to learn instead of beating the person, but when you use your training in a REAL fight, you need to fight to win. You need to fight someone with the mindset of winning to really get the most from your training. And you can do that constructively through sport.
I'm going to assume that you use the word "fight" in place of self-defense out of convenience. If not, so you're aware, I differentiate between the two. I'm rather fond of Marc MacYoung's interpretation in his article The difference between fighting and self-defense.

Now that that's out of the way, in a self-defense situation I am not going to use my training to win, I'm going to use it to survive. I see surviving and winning as two entirely different concepts. Traditionally, to win can mean to struggle, but modern interpretations often apply its use to sports, so we'd normally associate it with victory in a contest or with the act of earning. So, in this case, survival does not equate to winning. A strategic retreat (running), for example, is not often viewed as a successful win, but its applications for survival are invaluable.

Alot of people look at martial arts in the way you do, its not ment for sport its ment for something far more noble ect ect. I understand where your comming from. But through sport you are promoting martial arts, your getting the next best thing next to real fighting, your entertaining people, expressing yourself through martial arts, and in a controlled environment. Your learning what its like to fight full contact, that is so important. Your not disrespecting the arts by competing, your learning, and promoting it.

You will also make yourself known in the martial arts community, and can make alot of friends that way. Compitition is a great thing as long as there is not to much ego and attitude involved, stay away from those types of organizations. There really is alot of great things that come out of competing.
If you view survival as noble, then yes, I see Martial Arts as a noble endeavor. The promotion of Martial Arts is not my goal. I study a very old and very traditional Martial Art that has survived many centuries beyond the public eye. It is now perhaps more public than it has ever been before, but even then it is a relatively obscure Martial Art.

I don't see sport as the next best thing to self-defense. I originally come from a sport Martial Art background, and I find the differences between sport and reality to be significant indeed. I am not suggesting that sport doesn't have beneficial applications, but in terms of preparing someone for real life altercations I find it rather unsatisfactory.
 

DeLamar.J

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Floating Egg said:
I'm going to assume that you use the word "fight" in place of self-defense out of convenience. If not, so you're aware, I differentiate between the two. I'm rather fond of Marc MacYoung's interpretation in his article The difference between fighting and self-defense.

Now that that's out of the way, in a self-defense situation I am not going to use my training to win, I'm going to use it to survive. I see surviving and winning as two entirely different concepts. Traditionally, to win can mean to struggle, but modern interpretations often apply its use to sports, so we'd normally associate it with victory in a contest or with the act of earning. So, in this case, survival does not equate to winning. A strategic retreat (running), for example, is not often viewed as a successful win, but its applications for survival are invaluable.


If you view survival as noble, then yes, I see Martial Arts as a noble endeavor. The promotion of Martial Arts is not my goal. I study a very old and very traditional Martial Art that has survived many centuries beyond the public eye. It is now perhaps more public than it has ever been before, but even then it is a relatively obscure Martial Art.

I don't see sport as the next best thing to self-defense. I originally come from a sport Martial Art background, and I find the differences between sport and reality to be significant indeed. I am not suggesting that sport doesn't have beneficial applications, but in terms of preparing someone for real life altercations I find it rather unsatisfactory.

Well, whatever floats your boat I guess. Win, survive, same thing IMO unless you really wanna start getting all technical on me. Either way I like compitition. If I fight on the street I want to win, if I fight in the ring I want to win. I guess survive is a better term for a street fight if you want to get proper.
I guarantee that a martial artist who competes in full contact events will SURVIVE as you like to say, more often than one who does not. Its a fact. You at least have to spar very hard to get the full effect of oyur training. Sometimes you have to get a little raw to prove this point to some.
People just require a little butt kicken to show them the facts, which are, if you want to defend yourself in a REAL situation, all the pitty pat crap aint gonna help you, you have to train hard, hit hard and take hard hits, period. If you dont, then your going to get your butt kicked.
 

Flatlander

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I don't think that competing in a structured event is necessary, but for some, it will be a valuable experience. What I do feel is that the same benefits can be achieved in the dojo - depending on how you spar. You can run the same type of rules in the dojo spar as you do in any organized event.

Having said that, you may, in an organized event, get the opportunity to roll with people with different artistic backgrounds, training styles, etc. That's a definite positive.

In terms of the "competitive" nature, with regard to its translation to defense on the street, I don't think that we can speak in absolutes. For some, it may help. They may gain the confidence necessary to dominate an attacker by competing in the ring, but not all folks require that experience in order to know how they'll react. On the other hand, due to the competitive nature of the events in question, its entirely likely that a competitor would change their training regimine somewhat in order to prepare for an event. For some, that may not be a palatable option.
 

Floating Egg

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That seems very sensible Flatlander. Perhaps it is better if we don't speak in absolutes.
 
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JKD_Silat

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I compete in amateur kickboxing, and NHB to expose weaknesses against people whom I don't spar with every day in class. For me, It is very beneficial, and I always learn something new about myself, win or lose.
 
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