Does competition have its uses?

M

Mush

Guest
When comparing the competitive element of boxing and say Muay Thai, do you think Jeet Kune Do misses out in terms of the regular full blooded matches that amateurs/professionals take part in. Obviously JKD can never take place in a competitive environment as rules are involved and many aspects of the art would be outlawed. Although boxing and Muay Thai bouts are not a recreation of a street fight, they do preprare the individual for facing an opponent who is looking to do you serious damage. Within their fields you're faced with the adrenalin rush and stamina sapping nervous energy.
Do many JKD schools/instructors open themselves up to this kind of combat. I guess I'm trying to say I feel in those fields they have an edge in terms of the preparation and experience these kind of competition bouts provide. Even though they involve rules they are as near to the real thing that these sports/arts are allowed to do. Can you make a judgement on a professional Muay Thai kickboxer with 50 bouts under his belt, excellent fitness and body conditioning with say a JKD instructor with 20 years of experience whoi has sparred for years at 60% with a lot of their tools limited during sparring also.
Say both guys had an encounter in a street. Who is the better prepared- the competition fighter who has vast experience of trying to inflict damage (within rules) or a JKD exponent who has never executed many of his most dangerous tools on a real person?
I guess the big issue is how hard the sparring goes at all the various JKD schools around the world. My thinking is that a boxer or Muay Thai guy is gonna know what the tools he uses are capable of due to regular fights. Is a JKD guy gonna know if his technique is good enough if he has never executed it before in such a situation.
I might be opening myself to get shot down here but I'm just opening up the debate to get feedback
 

achilles

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
111
Reaction score
5
A lot of JKD can be done in the ring. While the eye jab, groin kick and knee kick are not allowed in most competition, a lot of the the stereotypic JKD tools (i.e. lead punch, backfist, side kick, etc.) can be used in competition and fare well. JKD was one of the first arts to use safety equipment to spar all out so I don't think that JKD can't be used in the ring to some degree. I think that Kevin Seaman's group does some competition in the golden gloves and maybe other venues as well. One of the JKD Wednesday Night Group members fights competitively I think also. I had an amateur boxing match a while back where I fought with a strong side lead and through chung chuies and won. JKD is a versatile art.
 
OP
M

Mr_Scissors

Guest
At my school we often go out to the parking lot and put on shin guards, rib guards, gloves, and motorcycle helmets then duke it out. We also practice without the gear (except gloves) and simply disallow certain strikes. The senior group of students are all well trained enough that no one gets hurt too badly.

We also practice a modified version of Chi-Sao, that incorporates kicking, sweeps, and throws along with the regular hand-work. By the time practice ends 2 hours later there's always been some fierce competition. In addition we do some all out groundfighting wearing light (4 oz) gloves and headgear. Sometimes we mix up those practices by beginning in Chi-Sao and then contiuing to a finish, standing up or on the floor.

I feel the level of competition in my training is and has been adequate, though I certainly can't speak for anyone else.
 
OP
M

Mush

Guest
I guess when you have a group who are willing and of a similar level you can go for it a bit. I'm not at that sort of level yet. At the moment I'm sparring with my instructor but it's just punching with front kicks (with headguards), no takedowns or grappling involved or kicks to the legs.
My problem is different sparring partners as the turnover of students is high at the club and the difference in ability. Basically I'm the only student willing/able to train pretty much everyday.
Back to the point I made though. The sparring you talk about going on is including headgear, rib guards, shin guards. Do you also spar without, say just gloves to get some conditioning to blows to various parts of the body. (i.e. kicks to the thigh) Conditioning of the legs and shins is not something I've heard or read about much within JKD. Say with Muay Thai there seems to be a lot of conditioning of the legs for impact. For receiving blows and giving them out. Again in their competition there are just the gloves for protection. Matches I've seen have included knees to the body, elbows to the top of the head. Would you say this kind of conditioning is superior to what many JKD people practice?
 
OP
M

Mr_Scissors

Guest
===>We also practice without the gear (except gloves) and simply disallow certain strikes. <===

By "certain strikes" I mean hits to the throat, eyes, kneecaps, foot stomps, and groin attacks. We also have an unspoken agreement to keep headbutts to extrmely light contact and be careful not to break anyone's nose.

For shin conditioning I use the rolling pin method. We also do intense forearm conditioning drills.
 
OP
M

Mush

Guest
Mr_Scissors said:
===>For shin conditioning I use the rolling pin method.
What's this technique then??? Do you mean tapping along your shins to condition them???
 
OP
M

Mr_Scissors

Guest
Sit with your knees bent up in front of you. Then take a rolling pin and roll it up and down your shins, pressing as hard as you can handle. Stop when your shins feel like their on fire. By this time you should have a red line up and down your shin. After doing this every other day for a while you won't really feel any pain when you are hit in the shin. You should feel as though your trying to smooth out the little bumps in the bone as you roll the pin.

Hitting the shins hard enough to condition them can lead to micro-fractures and blood clots, or so I've been told. For that reason I roll my shins instead.
 
OP
M

Mush

Guest
Mr_Scissors said:
Hitting the shins hard enough to condition them can lead to micro-fractures and blood clots, or so I've been told. For that reason I roll my shins instead.
Great tip that. I'll keep that in mind and try it out. Thanks. So do you think Thai boxers are prone to such occurences of clots/micro-fractures. Do you know if there is nerve damage done at all as well?
Any idea why the shins are susceptible to clots, microfractures? Are you hands not from conditioning using sand bags/ beanbags/pebbles etc?
 

masherdong

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
856
Reaction score
9
Location
Katy, Texas
I think competition always has some good uses. You actually have a chance to try to practice your techniques at full speed and with someone physically coming at you. Now, I feel that it should be a requirement to go but it is good experience to do them.
 
OP
M

Mr_Scissors

Guest
NOTE: I am not a medical professional. :-offtopic

From what I understand the reason the shin is subject to microfractures is because the front surface of the bone is uneven. if you run your hand down your shin it will feel bumpy, almost as though it has tiny fins. If you simply beat your shins, you will be hitting them unevenly and the impact can cause fractures. You can condition them with normal sandbag kicking, but that takes forever.

A doctor I know told me that the tiny pieces of bone can get caught in ruptured blood vessels caused by the impact and create clots.

On the subject of nerve damage, yes there is nerve damage being done. ON PURPOSE. When you roll the shins as I have described you will basically crush some of the sensitive tissue around the shin. I can still feel pressure and extremes of heat and cold, but that's it. If I smack my shin on the coffee table it will bruise like normal, but I never feel any pain.
 
OP
M

Mush

Guest
Mr_Scissors said:
NOTE: I am not a medical professional. :-offtopic
Yeah sorry about that...got a bit carried away with the inquisitive questions there! Thanks for the knowledge though!!!
Do you follow the contours of the shin (i.e roll it slightly to the left, then centre, slightly to the right) as your rolling or stick to the edge of the shin?
 
OP
M

Mr_Scissors

Guest
Stick to the egde. :) if it hurts, you're probably doing it right %-}
 
OP
H

Hawkeye

Guest
Input to two points. First every martial art I'm aware of has aspects or -strikes/attacks dis-allowed in competition. As a Kenpo practicioner there are a great deal of strikes, gouges, punches, kicks....that aren't allowed in competition.

That being said when I train people I use the RedMan XP suit. That way we can protect the victim/instructor and allow students to strike areas at a much higher degree without hurting anyone. Repeating what someone said above - competition allows you to work out moves and counters on someone that you don't spar with regularly. You can't anticipate where or how they will come at you. I use competition to work on specific attacks or defenses. Not being overly concerned on the final outcome - either way I learn how to modify or use that technique to its potential.

Hawkeye.
 

JKogas

Yellow Belt
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
24
Reaction score
2
Competition is a good thing. It's a test of one's abilities against an individual attempting to do the same thing (ie. knock you out) to you, that you are to him.

Sort of like a real fight.


-John
 

Flatlander

Grandmaster
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
6,785
Reaction score
65
Location
The Canuckistan Plains
I think that the answer to this question is experience. What I mean by that is, a person who has spent a lot of time training honestly using resistance and aliveness will be effective. I think that there is long term value in competing, in that you get an opportunity to be put to the test. You get to be put under pressure against an unpredictable opponent; that's bound to be a learning experience.

However, I think that placing oneself under a training regime wherein one trains to operate within a framework of rules can be damaging to one's repertoire or "combat creativity" in the short term. You fight how you train, right?

In the long term, I don't think that this would be much of a problem. Once someone gets to the point where they've been training for a long time, there's such a vast amount of experience to draw from, what they've been doing in the short term will become less relevant if they're pressed to perform spontaneously.

IMO.
 
OP
S

Sifu Barry Cuda

Guest
Hey guys, why cant JKD people compete? I fought in the gloves and I have a student that competes regularly in Brasilian Jiu Jitsu.JKD is not the end all deadliest style in the world and I dont know who says that it is.I know JKD people that compete in all aspects of full contact competition.Sure you cant eye or throat jab or chew on someones ear but hell, anybody in any art can compete if they want to.Going against someone you dont know in a full contact competition of any type will help you in your quest to not getting your butt kicked in the streetBarry www.combatartsusa.com
 

JKogas

Yellow Belt
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
24
Reaction score
2
Let's put it this way: A "JKD man" should be able to fight under any circumstances and within any environment. That would include THE RING or CAGE.

I've heard people before say, "Ah, I might not be able to fight in the ring with rules, but without rules, I'm a DEMON" (etc., etc)

That's what their mouth says (if you get my meaning)

If you can only fight under certain circumstances, that to me IS NOT indicative of what it means to be a JKD man (or woman).

Competition doesn't have to necessarily mean that you need to be a PRO fighter, or maybe even an amateur fighter - it could mean only that you spar and roll as often as possible, against as many people as possible. That's still the same thing basically. I mean, you ARE all sparring, right??! I don't see competition as really being that much different.


-John
 
OP
S

Sifu Barry Cuda

Guest
Great reply, as a fulltime JKD instructor I try to dispel the myths of what JKd is and isnt.When it comes down to it its often about the man and not the art, Barry www.combatartsusa.com
 
Top