Carrying to/from/at the martial arts school

[skribs113 134]

So unless we're willing to invest in private security, we should do nothing. Brilliant advice.

That's not how risk management works.

 

[skribs113 134]

That's a clue that you need to consult honestly and clearly with a professional who can properly assess the risk and help you develop a plan.

And who says we haven't?

This is the first time I've seen you fail the peek-a-boo test. That if something isn't right in front of you, you assume it doesn't exist. I'm not going to participate in a discussion with someone who cannot perceive the world outside of the 3 seconds before them. Because then all I'm going to end up doing is typing up 10,000 word essays to cover every possible caveat...and it will be in vain because you'll only remember the last three sentences or I'll leave out one detail and you'll derail the entire discussion on a gotcha. I've been through this conversation before. It's not helpful. And 99% of the time I just put the person on ignore, but you're immune from that.

During my time on this forum I've come to trust you as one of the good ones. You've really let me down this time. I'm absolutely shocked at the very bad-faith takes and logical fallacies you're making in this thread. Just astounded. I thought you were better than this.

You can't simultaneously coach and guard anymore than you can do BJJ and no touch knockouts. If things are that serious, you need a serious and focused person guarding you.

The students are not in danger 100% of the time. Risk and threat are different things. Risk is there's a chance of something happening and you need to be prepared. Threat is something is happening and you need to respond. We are at the risk management stage right now. The threat stage is what to do when something happens. And we are preparing for it.

This is also something that only the coaches and a few specific students who have been regulars for a long time are aware of. It's not something that is general public knowledge at the school. It's not something all of the kids and the parents know about. Hiring security is A) not in the school's budget, and B) would raise more red flags than it would help.

If indeed nothing happens, then we've individually spent our personal time and money on ways to improve our self-defense posture. If something happens, we're better prepared than if we didn't.

I am lecturing you because this is what I do professionally.

Not only are you lecturing me on not preparing

• Even though we are
  • And without knowing what we have done to prepare and what we haven't, you really have no place to lecture us on

Not only are you lecturing me on not going to the police

• Even though we are
  • And I had posted that we are in posts prior to you lecturing me
    • And even if I hadn't posted that, there would have been no way for you to know we're not

But you're also trying to lecture me that I'm not asking for professional help

• When I'm on this forum asking for help
  • Assuming professionals are here
    • Which you confirmed

I really have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here.

I have a specific question. I'm not asking for the whole picture. We're dealing with that in other ways. I have a specific question I want answered. A question that you specifically chose not to answer when you said this:

I'll skip the ton of things ti say about carrying a firearm for the moment and simply sum all.of that up with get good and proper training, covering not just the hows but whens and whys of shooting in self defense, and what to do afterwards.

Sticking to the practical question... start by making sure you know what's legal I your state about transport and storage. Then, get a lockbox for your car. Don't trust gym lockers or the like. And you're not in a position during a class to track a bag.

I'll also say, my initial comments about the bad takes were not aimed at you, but rather at Flying Crane and Highkick. You seem to have internalized that as an insult against you. I wasn't upset with you at the start of this thread. I was upset with those folks (who are on my ignore list because they routinely do what I mentioned above).

If you took it personally when it was aimed at them, then maybe you need to re-evaluate how you answered the question. Because I wasn't trying to criticize you in post 15 or post 16. But I'm definitely more on guard with your answers going forward because of how you responded.

 

[Dirty Dog11]

Why conceal your carry? Surely if you had an Uzi 9mm (always say that with an Austrian accent) strapped to your forehead and big knives sticking up from you shoulders etc, the deterrent effect would obviate the need for actual violence?

There are two schools of thought about open vs concealed carry.
One side says it will be a deterrent. That's clearly your side.
The other side believes that open carry is basically a sign saying "shoot me first".
There is no real evidence to support either position.

@skribs I carry. Every day. I'd say take it off for sparring. If it's not on me, it's in my bag. Which is on a shelf in the dojang where I can see it. I wear a tank under my dobak with pockets in the pits, with straps. Very comfortable. Very secure.

 

[skribs113 134]

There are two schools of thought about open vs concealed carry.
One side says it will be a deterrent. That's clearly your side.
The other side believes that open carry is basically a sign saying "shoot me first".
There is no real evidence to support either position.

I think this is one of those cases where there are two logical courses of thought, and the only illogical course is to assume that one side is 100% right.

I slightly disagree with you on the evidence statement. There's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument. Which is what makes it more difficult to make the right decision. I think the proper thing is to:

• Understand that if you conceal carry as a tactic, you do everything in your power to remain concealed unless absolutely necessary.
• Understand that if you conceal carry as a legal or regulatory requirement, you do everything in your power to follow the letter of the law (including the decision to threaten or use force in self-defense).
• Understand that if you open carry, you and your gun are now potential targets, and factor that into your risk assessments and situational awareness.

I think it's a debate worth exploring, but not to the point that someone vilifies the other side or treat people like they're choosing to die because they disagree with your tactical assessment. At that point the debate would have become an argument.

@skribs I carry. Every day. I'd say take it off for sparring. If it's not on me, it's in my bag. Which is on a shelf in the dojang where I can see it. I wear a tank under my dobak with pockets in the pits, with straps. Very comfortable. Very secure.

When in the bag, are there any additional measures in place to make sure a kid doesn't accidentally get ahold of it?

I could maybe see carrying during TKD teaching, but definitely couldn't see myself carrying while coaching BJJ.

 

[Dirty Dog11]

I think this is one of those cases where there are two logical courses of thought, and the only illogical course is to assume that one side is 100% right.

Agreed. Absolutes have very, very little chance of being correct.

I slightly disagree with you on the evidence statement. There's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument.

Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence. At most, it can point to a possibility that should be investigated, to look for actual evidence.
There is a restaurant in Indianapolis that was being robbed on a regular basis. They instituted a policy giving a 25% discount to anyone who shows their Permit. They put signs in the windows saying this. They stopped being robbed. That's anecdotal. So did the robberies stop because of the armed people inside, or because of the signs, or something else entirely?

When in the bag, are there any additional measures in place to make sure a kid doesn't accidentally get ahold of it?

No. But then again, we've never had many young kids. Pretty much teens or adults. The bag is where I can see it, in a place that students don't use. The gun is in a specific, zippered pocket and would take a fair bit of digging around to find.

I could maybe see carrying during TKD teaching, but definitely couldn't see myself carrying while coaching BJJ.

If you're going to spar or do hands on instruction, it's probably best to remove it.

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Isn’t one of the pillars of martial arts training to learn self defense?

 

[skribs113 134]

Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence. At most, it can point to a possibility that should be investigated, to look for actual evidence.
There is a restaurant in Indianapolis that was being robbed on a regular basis. They instituted a policy giving a 25% discount to anyone who shows their Permit. They put signs in the windows saying this. They stopped being robbed. That's anecdotal. So did the robberies stop because of the armed people inside, or because of the signs, or something else entirely?

If I owned a restaurant and it was being robbed on a regular basis, and I heard that this policy protected another restaurant, it's definitely something I'd consider doing. If I looked into it and found they were the only ones who had done this and so there's no real data, that wouldn't discourage me. And my participating in this policy would add more data for future studies.

 

[drop bear114 53]

Bust out the classics and use a violin case?

 

[jks919986 11]

And who says we haven't?

This is the first time I've seen you fail the peek-a-boo test. That if something isn't right in front of you, you assume it doesn't exist. I'm not going to participate in a discussion with someone who cannot perceive the world outside of the 3 seconds before them. Because then all I'm going to end up doing is typing up 10,000 word essays to cover every possible caveat...and it will be in vain because you'll only remember the last three sentences or I'll leave out one detail and you'll derail the entire discussion on a gotcha. I've been through this conversation before. It's not helpful. And 99% of the time I just put the person on ignore, but you're immune from that.

During my time on this forum I've come to trust you as one of the good ones. You've really let me down this time. I'm absolutely shocked at the very bad-faith takes and logical fallacies you're making in this thread. Just astounded. I thought you were better than this.

The students are not in danger 100% of the time. Risk and threat are different things. Risk is there's a chance of something happening and you need to be prepared. Threat is something is happening and you need to respond. We are at the risk management stage right now. The threat stage is what to do when something happens. And we are preparing for it.

This is also something that only the coaches and a few specific students who have been regulars for a long time are aware of. It's not something that is general public knowledge at the school. It's not something all of the kids and the parents know about. Hiring security is A) not in the school's budget, and B) would raise more red flags than it would help.

If indeed nothing happens, then we've individually spent our personal time and money on ways to improve our self-defense posture. If something happens, we're better prepared than if we didn't.



Not only are you lecturing me on not preparing

• Even though we are
  • And without knowing what we have done to prepare and what we haven't, you really have no place to lecture us on

Not only are you lecturing me on not going to the police

• Even though we are
  • And I had posted that we are in posts prior to you lecturing me
    • And even if I hadn't posted that, there would have been no way for you to know we're not

But you're also trying to lecture me that I'm not asking for professional help

• When I'm on this forum asking for help
  • Assuming professionals are here
    • Which you confirmed

I really have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here.

I have a specific question. I'm not asking for the whole picture. We're dealing with that in other ways. I have a specific question I want answered. A question that you specifically chose not to answer when you said this:


I'll also say, my initial comments about the bad takes were not aimed at you, but rather at Flying Crane and Highkick. You seem to have internalized that as an insult against you. I wasn't upset with you at the start of this thread. I was upset with those folks (who are on my ignore list because they routinely do what I mentioned above).

If you took it personally when it was aimed at them, then maybe you need to re-evaluate how you answered the question. Because I wasn't trying to criticize you in post 15 or post 16. But I'm definitely more on guard with your answers going forward because of how you responded.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm being blunt. You want to protect your place. Good. But you can't teach, run the training hall, etc. and be the protection. You bring a gun, you secure it in the hall... great. You teach kids; it better be REAL well secured because kids will find them. Probably best to unload and separate the guns from the ammo. I certainly hope you aren't even considering bringing live weapons onto the training floor! Meanwhile, you're worried enough that you're asking a question here. If you've talked to a guard company, had the local PD do a security assessment, or anything else like that -- they most likely told you something similar. Something happens -- what do you do? Oh, no -- run to the office, unlock the cabinet, load the gun, and now you're ready to respond? Not realistic. But -- if you're that worried, and hired a guard, THEY are paying attention to the threat, and dealing with it while you can handle keeping the students calm. Have you followed the arguments about arming teachers in schools? Same basic situation.

I frequently am present at the school mass for the parochial school since the shooting in Minnesota last fall. When I do that -- I am not attending mass. My focus is outward, looking for potential issues, not on the service. My role in that moment is not worshipper, but guard.

You have given very few details, and that's fine. Maybe you have some detail, known only to you, that would shift this advice -- but I don't know it. So let me walk you through what you've presented and what advice I would likely give. You have someone that has presented enough of a problem that you have issued a trespass notice. OK, that's really a low level of risk when I assess it; lots of reasons to trespass someone including that they simply keep sneaking into classes without paying dues. No immediate threat. But, you're also worried enough to ask about bringing a legally and lawfully carried firearm to protect the school and yourself. Because a trespass notice or even a protective order is really just a piece of paper. Got it... apparently this person has you scared enough that they might violate the notice to elevate the concern. With nothing more, we're at a mid-level risk. Consult with a guard company, review the security, remind everyone, lock the doors except for class change, keep someone at the door to open it when needed (or not open it). If there are factors that raise it more, look at putting a guard at the entrance, maybe even walking the grounds. But arming the instructors? That's a last ditch level.

When we do training exercises in law enforcement, we put someone uninvolved in a security role. The instructors and students and role players and whoever else? They secure their weapons during the training. We check ourselves, our partner checks us, and then an instructor checks everyone. Triple safety check, because live weapons in a training environment is a VERY bad thing.

Oh, and going all the way back to your original post? How do I carry to and from the gym, training hall, or other environment? Just like I said earlier. I have a lockbox in my car, and secure my pistol in it. In the very rare circumstance that I feel I can't trust that, or that I need the weapon more accessible, like Dirty Dog, it's in my bag, and stays in my sight, close by.

 

[HighKick]

Uh...you mean like the martial artists that are arming ourselves just in case we need to protect ourselves or others at the gym? Hmmm...why didn't we think of that....?

And no, I'm not telling the whole story. Ask ChatGPT to make up a story for you if you're so bored.

Dude. I am not the one asking vague and baiting questions.

 

[Dirty Dog11]

Oh, and going all the way back to your original post? How do I carry to and from the gym, training hall, or other environment? Just like I said earlier. I have a lockbox in my car, and secure my pistol in it. In the very rare circumstance that I feel I can't trust that, or that I need the weapon more accessible, like Dirty Dog, it's in my bag, and stays in my sight, close by.

What kind do you use? I have a biometric holster in each vehicle.

It's bolted to the transmission hump. Getting it out of the car and out of the holster is going to require quite a bit of work.

 

[jks919986 11]

What kind do you use? I have a biometric holster in each vehicle.

It's bolted to the transmission hump. Getting it out of the car and out of the holster is going to require quite a bit of work.

Nothing fancy. A cypher lockbox and cable attached to the frame, and concealed from view.

 

[HighKick]

Bust out the classics and use a violin case?

"Say hello to my little friend"!

 

[HighKick]

What kind do you use? I have a biometric holster in each vehicle.

It's bolted to the transmission hump. Getting it out of the car and out of the holster is going to require quite a bit of work.

Wow, does that look familiar!

 

[HighKick]

I'm not taking it personally. I'm being blunt. You want to protect your place. Good. But you can't teach, run the training hall, etc. and be the protection. You bring a gun, you secure it in the hall... great. You teach kids; it better be REAL well secured because kids will find them. Probably best to unload and separate the guns from the ammo. I certainly hope you aren't even considering bringing live weapons onto the training floor! Meanwhile, you're worried enough that you're asking a question here. If you've talked to a guard company, had the local PD do a security assessment, or anything else like that -- they most likely told you something similar. Something happens -- what do you do? Oh, no -- run to the office, unlock the cabinet, load the gun, and now you're ready to respond? Not realistic. But -- if you're that worried, and hired a guard, THEY are paying attention to the threat, and dealing with it while you can handle keeping the students calm. Have you followed the arguments about arming teachers in schools? Same basic situation.

I frequently am present at the school mass for the parochial school since the shooting in Minnesota last fall. When I do that -- I am not attending mass. My focus is outward, looking for potential issues, not on the service. My role in that moment is not worshipper, but guard.

You have given very few details, and that's fine. Maybe you have some detail, known only to you, that would shift this advice -- but I don't know it. So let me walk you through what you've presented and what advice I would likely give. You have someone that has presented enough of a problem that you have issued a trespass notice. OK, that's really a low level of risk when I assess it; lots of reasons to trespass someone including that they simply keep sneaking into classes without paying dues. No immediate threat. But, you're also worried enough to ask about bringing a legally and lawfully carried firearm to protect the school and yourself. Because a trespass notice or even a protective order is really just a piece of paper. Got it... apparently this person has you scared enough that they might violate the notice to elevate the concern. With nothing more, we're at a mid-level risk. Consult with a guard company, review the security, remind everyone, lock the doors except for class change, keep someone at the door to open it when needed (or not open it). If there are factors that raise it more, look at putting a guard at the entrance, maybe even walking the grounds. But arming the instructors? That's a last ditch level.

When we do training exercises in law enforcement, we put someone uninvolved in a security role. The instructors and students and role players and whoever else? They secure their weapons during the training. We check ourselves, our partner checks us, and then an instructor checks everyone. Triple safety check, because live weapons in a training environment is a VERY bad thing.

Oh, and going all the way back to your original post? How do I carry to and from the gym, training hall, or other environment? Just like I said earlier. I have a lockbox in my car, and secure my pistol in it. In the very rare circumstance that I feel I can't trust that, or that I need the weapon more accessible, like Dirty Dog, it's in my bag, and stays in my sight, close by.

Agree. I can see this thing spiraling out of control the Other way Real fast.

u/skribs needs to think of it this way: whatever the weapon is (body, sword, firearm, rock, etc...) someone damn well better be directly in control of it. This would also include locking it up when training. If you truly feel someone needs to have a firearm on their person while training is going on, that person Cannot be actively training. If the threat is that imminent, a Whole lot of wrong is going on at that place. Hard stop.

For comparison, our church is near a major interstate exit and we get a lot of transients on the campus. We have meals 3x's/week so we are well known in the homeless community. It goes without saying some of these folks are straight-up unhinged. We have a healthy body of people who carry, some open, some not. We have never had a major problem and yes, it gets rather crazy sometimes.
Security done the wrong way creates more problems than it fixes.

 

[wab25]

There is a simple solution here. The problem, as explained here, is one person, who has been trespassed. Have one person assigned to be in the lobby or whatever entrance you have.... His job is to watch for that person without making a big deal out of it. Many martial arts places have open windows, so people will see in and get curious or interested.... If the known "problem" appears, the guy on watch locks the door and calls the police... the guy that has been trespassed in now trespassing again.

The big downside here is that it does not involve firearms, carrying or even confrontation.

The upside is that training continues as normal, you have one extra adult watching through the door. Its cheap, just one extra adult.... you could even rotate.... the only training would be to recognize the individual in question and doing drills on locking the door....

 

[drop bear114 53]

So the argument is when it comes to self defence. Don't do some hokey system some guy just made up and thinks is good?



..................interesting.

 

[Steve]

So the argument is when it comes to self defence. Don't do some hokey system some guy just made up and thinks is good?



..................interesting.

 

[skribs113 134]

I wear a tank under my dobak with pockets in the pits, with straps. Very comfortable. Very secure.

I found these online after your comment and ordered one. Just got it in. Seems nice.

 

[wab25]

So the argument is when it comes to self defence. Don't do some hokey system some guy just made up and thinks is good?



..................interesting.

When it comes to self defense... the goal is to be able to go to work tomorrow. You don't want to end up in the morgue, the hospital or the jail. You want to use the most efficient things you can that limit your risk as much as possible.

By locking the door and calling the cops... you don't have to risk him getting lucky, him carrying and using a weapon you did not see. You don't have to worry about being charged for some type of assault or sued for some type of injury.

Now, if the guy gets in, before you can lock the door and assaults you or one of the students, now you can use the hokey system that some guy invented.... but then there are the legal and civil issues around use of force and any injuries sustained.... this is assuming your hokey system makes you the winner....

Good self defense is simple, easy and high percentage. Locking the door and calling the cops is simple, easy and high percentage.